Hunting guns use

[Todd Watts]

This may be a re-do of some earlier discussions and if so, sorry. I have been asked before how many "hunting guns" were used. Obvioulsy, especially in the first year and even longer in the more remote western or FL areas they were used, but how "correct" would say a KY rifle or Hawken be? In the museum at Tellico Plains, TN there is a TN rifle (sometimes called iron mountain guns) which was reportedly used by a local in the war. It is a cap-lock, with a nipple appearing to be for #10 sized caps. It has a long octagonal barrel and is roughly .45". How correct are these guns for our early war events?

Todd Watts

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Hunting guns use

Todd
There is quite a bit of research on the use of Civilian weapons during the Civil War that was completed for the firearms section of the upcoming book "Wearing the Gray". I will send some info which is still in rough draft form and which includes many period accounts describing the use in detail.

Not just Confederate use either. Take a close look at the cover shot of Patrick Brown's "For Fatigue Purposes" (Federal Sack Coat book) and you will see a Federal soldier holding what appears to an American mountain type target or hunting rifle.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Hunting guns use

Hallo!

Indeed...
Particularly with some "early War" Confederate, with even shotguns and "Kentucky" type longrifles being pressed/impressed into service- with some having their muzzles lathe turned round to accept socket bayonets or modified to accept sabre type bayonets...

IMHO, federal images or for that matter any image may need be viewed with some caution. Meaning, in an image, it is impossible or not alway spossible to know whether the weapon being held is the soldier's or the photographer's studio prop. (Civilian and even obsolete military muskets such as flint or percussion M1812's or M1822's sometimes show up- even on mid to late War images where it is known the ID'd unit was "Springfield" or "Enfield," etc., armed at the time or earlier.

And that raises a discussion as to how free soldiers were in leaving camp or garrison with their arms and accoutrements (musters and other exceptions so noted...).

Not saying a particular image isn't so, just adding to the discussion...

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Hunting guns use

Very good point. I am going to have dig up my copy of FFP (For Fatigue Purposes) and see if that cover shot is a posed studio portrait prop or something taken elsewhere. CS provenance is beyond any argument. The Richmond Enquirer had in article that appeared in October 1861 asking for the donation of any civilian arms. The Orphan Brigade from KY records having civilian rifles and shotguns before being issued Enfields just prior to Shiloh. There are many other accounts, some as late as 1864 in the Army of Tennessee that record civilian rifles in the ranks being replaced, one of which was still in flint.

Another point for discussion with respect Federal usage, Hiram Berdan offered his Sharpshooters bonus pay of $60 for "rifles" brought from home. The $60 bonus was never paid, but the "American mountain" rifles would certainly be a common type of weapon brought from home and used by skirmishers and percision rifleman. Typical or common size bore, .45 or .50, 36" (some longer) blued or browned octagon barrel with open sights. This type rifle, more so than the P-53 or US 1861 were found fitted with brass long range 4x scopes for marksmen.

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Hunting guns use

One Federal Unit that utilized sporting or 'target' rifles was the 66th Illinois Western Sharpshooters. They were known as the 14th Missouri Birge's Western Sharpshooters through Donelson and Shiloh, but the designation was changed after that to the 66th.

They carried what was known as the Dimick Rifle, which was a half-stock, octagon barrell which was very similar to the Hawkins rifle. They ranged in caliber from around .30 upto .69cal. Each man molded his own bullets as each gun had a mold made specifically for that gun. (Each was numbered).

After the Spring of 62, each man started purchasing the Henry Repeater, however not everyone got them. The unique bullets that the Dimick Rifle utilized have been found all throughout the Atlanta campaign (Up till Atlanta falling).

John Walsh
FDR

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Hunting guns use

Hallo!

Regarding Berdan's....

Yes, there was a problem with the $60 bounty not being paid, as well as with Hiram Berdan wanting slant breech Sharps M1853 Sporting Rifles but not getting them approved.

The potential recruits were allowed to try out and qualify with their personal rifles. Rather than continue into service with them, they were sent home except for two men per company being designated as the best shots whose rifles were boxed and carried in the supply wagon for when accurate long-range sharpshooter work was needed.

When the companies were mustered at Camp Washington in D.C. there was a problem standing guard without firearms so Hall Breechloading rifles were found for the guard mount while Berdan argued about guns- the Army wanting to equip them with M1855 Rifles much to Berdan's fears.
Instead Berdan was able to Colt M1855 Revolving Rifles, un unpopular choice.
He continued to lobby for Sharps, getting approval for 2,000 Sharps NM1859 Rifles.

Just before much production got underway, Berdan took it upon himself to contact Sharps and requested two modifications in the NM1859 Rifles- a front sight modification to allow for socket rather than the unwieldy sabre bayonets, and double-set triggers.
They were able to get rid of the Colt Revolving Rifles in May and June of 1862 as the "Berdan Contract" Sharps NM1859's started to arrive.

And the two-per-company "target rifles" continued.

Curt

[hendrickms24]

Re: Hunting guns use

Not just Confederate use either. Take a close look at the cover shot of Patrick Brown's "For Fatigue Purposes" (Federal Sack Coat book) and you will see a Federal soldier holding what appears to an American mountain type rifle.

The Soldier you are referring to name is Charles L. Rice. He was Born Detroit, MI. and enlisted in First Company Sharpshooters (Brady's Sharp Shooters); attached to Sixteenth Infantry, as Sergeant, Sept. 16, 1861, at Detroit, for 3 years, age 22.
Mustered Sept. 16, 1861.
Joined regiment at Hall's Hill, Va., Feb. 14, 1862.
Promoted to First Sergeant.
Commissioned Second Lieutenant Nov. 1, 1862. Mustered Nov. 1, 1862.
Commissioned First Lieutenant Jan. 15, 1863. Mustered Jan. 15, 1863.
Discharged on Surgeon's certificate of disability Aug. 14, 1863.

The weapon that he is hold is a custom-built target rifle. The feature that identifies this rifle is the false muzzle, clearly visible at
the top of the rifle. This makes it extremely unlikely that the rifle was a photographers prop, as was common in period photographs. Brady's Sharp Shooters were asked to bring there own rifles with them (see recruitment poster) and used them until the weapons started to wear out. One member of my reenactor group was able to find letters from the company commander asking gunsmiths back in Michigan for replacement parts.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Hunting guns use

Thanks, Mark. That was my recollection as well re: the target rifle in the FFP (For Fatigue Purposes) photo. Back when FFP was first published the rifle in the cover photo made me curious and IlRC was told that it was not a studio prop but some sort of target or sharpshooter rifle belonging to that soldier. You saved some digging around to find that info. In fact, your post adds significant background info I did not have.

Todd posed an interesting question here, and the posts should make for interesting and informative dialog. It already has. So we can add "civilian hunting or target rifles" to the list of under-represented arms in the ranks for early war events?

Anybody want to take a stab at the last flintlock civilian hunting rifle in the ranks? The following first person account gives some insight not only into the time frame of use for a flintlock civilian hunting rifle issued to an Alabama soldier in 1862, but also how it was loaded:

"My first gun was a flint-lock rifle of the same death-dealing pattern as those used by the backwoodsmen of Jackson and Coffee…at New Orleans. It was a dangerous weapon at the muzzle, and not altogether harmless at the other end. I could never entirely overcome the sense of nervousness at the flash of the powder in the priming-pan within a few inches of the eye. The bullet used was molded from bars of lead kept in stock at all frontier stores. The ball was laid in the palm of the hand, and the proper charge of powder was measured by pouring enough to make a pyramid which just concealed it. The powder was then poured into the muzzle of the barrel held perpendicularly. A bit of thick cotton cloth greased with tallow on the under side was laid over the muzzle, and the ball, placed on this, was pushed in until its top was level with the surface of the barrel, when the patch was cut smoothly across with a sharp knife. Incased in this lubricated cloth envelope, the bullet was pushed down upon the charge of measured powder near the touch-hole by means of a long, slender ramrod of tough hickory. The priming-pan was next opened and filled with powder, and the "striker" closed. The flint was so arranged that when the hammer was cocked and the trigger pressed a spring drove the flint against the striker and primer, forcing it open, and thus bringing the powder in the pan in contact with the igniting spark. These (flintlock) guns, now obsolete, soon gave way to those equipped with tubes for percussion-caps..." John Allan Wyeth, With Sabre and Scalpel. Imperial Press, Chattanooga, TN. (1914), p 69.

[Gallo de Cielo]

Re: Hunting guns use

The 9th Texas Infantry is one unit that I can comment on specifically.

In early February, 1862, the regiment was in transit from their camps of instruction in North Texas, through Little Rock, and into Memphis. A train derailment injured several of the men and damaged many weapons. The regimental commander, Samuel Bell Maxey (later of Indian Territory fame), forwarded the damaged weapons to Memphis where they were to be serviced and made ready again. John Street reported that upon arriving in Memphis, the men found that their weapons had not been repaired. "We were forced to knock around and get guns where we could. We found one merchant that had a lot of second hand gunds. We picked them over and finally succeeded in getting our guns exchanged." On Feb 21, the men finally turned over the motley assortment of weaponry they carried in exchange for military arms. "Our Regt was marched to town [Iuka, MS] and our rifles and shotguns exchanged for Springfield Muskets with bayonets," Street wrote.

Several images of the men were struck around this time. One of Selen Stout can be seen in the Portraits of Conflict Texas volume. Stout is wearing a checked civilian shirt, long knife on his hip, double-barreled shotgun in-hand. A second image is attached of a fellow in the regiment with a civilian rifle and long knife.

These are just a few examples from one early-war regiment. Many units went in at Shiloh armed with civilian weapons and one also runs into accounts of units here and there throughout the war employing such pieces, shotguns in particular.

My two cents,

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

Looks like this is a topic we have common interest in. Craig, the picture of Pvt. Parker you sent me is not holding a "long rifle" I think. It appears more like side by side shotgun. I ran across a side by side cap-lock 24 ga at a small shop in Wartrace a few years ago the owner wanted me to fix just to make it stay together for him to hang on the wall. It had some carved numbers on the stock that I would describe as some sort of crude unit i.d. The owner said it'd been in the family a long time and family lore said it belonged to a CS soldier, a gr-gr-gr uncle or something he thought.

When I was in gunsmithing school we had a class on the history of guns that did deal some with this period. We were of course not interested in studying who had what gun, but more importanly how the gunsmithing was done and why. The average gunsmith back then was not a gunsmith by trade, but merely a blacksmith with time on his hands to build guns. The iron used was often so soft it could be whittle with a knife, and these barrels were considered better for accuracy by many. But, the lands wore out within a couple hundred shots, so the shooter had to double patch or use thicker materials. And the problem got worse and worse until he had to make or buy a larger ball mould. Still the lands wore away until the bore was essentially smooth bored and terrible over sized. So, the barrel would have to be "freshened" by reaming it out to remove all traces of old rifling, and then re-rifled in the larger caliber. Virtually all originals in private hands or museums today have been "freshened" at least once and many 2-3 times, so it is impossible to say what caliber they began life as. Lead was valuable and there was no need to sling more than was necessary, or burn more powder than needed, so smaller calibers were favored by the real "poor dirt farmers" of the eastern woods. The .32"-.40" bores wee very common as evidenced by the many surviving ball moulds or reamers in that size range. It was not until the great western migration of the 1820-1840 era that the shorter barrel "Hawken-style" rifles became popular with heavier calibers, beginning about .45" and going to the .58 or .60" sizes. The shorter barrels were easier to handle and with larger charges and bigger chunks of lead, they were better suited for the longer ranges and bigger game the westerners were running up against. I would venture a guess that MO volunteers may have arrived with a few of these "Hawken-style" guns, but few of these ever had a reason to be east of the MS river where the shotguns and "mountain rifles" reigned. That's my thought on it anyway.

Todd

[aaron1stvirginia]

Re: Hunting guns use

dear sir
i read in a book called Bushwhackers The Civil War in North Carolina: The Mountains, it was about the Thomas Legion (indians and others) where it spoke of the firearms they were armed with and it talked of them using flintlocks and shotguns and forgive me if i'm wrong but i believe it said they used sticks and spears. i recomend reading the book it speaks of more western battles and even about a lady and her husband joining a nc infantry group ran by zebulon vance.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Hunting guns use

Flintlocks, shotguns, fowling pieces were all in use, P E and C...nobody bit but according to one of Joe Bilby's books (I forget which) the last flintlock hunting rifle was purportedly still in the ranks in the AoT during 1864. There is little debate that civilian weapons are under-represented particularly for a Western theater Confederate impression pre-1864 in a hobby dominated by three band P-53 and US Model 1861 rifle-muskets.

Using and shooting flinties (civilian or otherwise) is a hoot, perhaps our comrade Tom Ezell of the 6th Arkansas Capitol Guards will weigh in on that. And while flintlocks require some special care, they are not necessarily less safe to shoot than percussion lock weapons.

[Tom Ezell]

Re: Hunting guns use

Amen... Rooting through the local records here in Arkansaw, it's interesting to note that as late as mid-summer 1863, nearly a third of the ammunition production was for .69 caliber flintlocks; the difference being that ammo issued for these didn't include percussion caps.

As for the civilian/hunting guns issue, the contemporary newspapers contain frequent requests for citizens to donate any spare guns for the use of the troops. A nmber of origianl civilian weapons documented to particular battles or campaigns are on display in the collections of Pea Ridge and Wilson's Creek national battlefields. Probably one of the more under-represented weapons is the hunting shotgun. These could often use the same military ammunition issued for the .69 pumpkin rollers, simplifying logistics a bit.

The military flintlocks of the U.S. government were in wide use for at least the first year of the war, and when replaced by "better" or at least percussion-lock weapons, were sent back for conversion or issued to local "home guard" style organizations. A nice advantage of these weapons is that local shortages of percussion caps doesn't bother you, if you've got powder and ball, you can still shoot!

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

Craig, that brings up a point that I often wonder about. That is, just how "correct" are 1861 US (Springfield) or the Enfields in the early battle events? I read I think in Fuller that there were only a few thousand (4-5000) of the 1861 models in existence in 1861, and none of the contract models started coming on the fields until early 1863. It stands to my reasoning that in the earliest battles, the only 1861 US models would have been in the hands of regular Army Federals. I can't imagine that the war dept would have shipped their brand new 1861s out to the various militia ya-hoos coming around seeking guns. More likely I can see them sending older 1855s to these new recruits and saving the 1861s for Regulars. Certainly no Confederates would have had any at 1st Bull Run. Probably precious few of the Enfields would have been in either side's hands at 1st Bull Run. Do you know of any "1st shipment" dates of these guns that can tell us when and where the various guns were arriving to troops?

Some accounts I have heard form the rangers I hang around suggest to me that at 1st Bull Run & Wilson's Creek right up to Shiloh the flintlocks were quite possibly as equally represented as percussion versions, especially in the CS ranks. This is a major reasoning I am trying to get the Liege and Pottsdam projects rolling. To be "correct" we need to steer away from 1861 US models especially for the 1861 and early 1862 events, in my opinion.

Just thought of another account of hunting guns use. There was a skirmish at Cades Cove, TN that is only barely mentioned in a couple of books on Cades Cove. I ran across the accounts in college while doing research on the Great Smoky Mts. Nat'l Park. It seems that the jist was that several local boys ran off to NC to join the CS cause, and the CS cavalry were routinely passing through the Cove and raiding for supplies. The locals, typical of the East TN folks, remained either largely neutral or were loyal to the Union, but either way the locals became fed up with raiding Rebs, even though some were their own neighbors or kin. So an ambush was set by locals using their personal arms, and 2 of the local boys in the Reb raiding party were detained briefly by a sister of one of them. This allowed the raider party to pass on a short distance without the Cades Cove boys with them. Then the locals ambushed the Rebs and a short fight ensued. One of the detained boys was said to have exclaimed at hearing the first shots up ahead "Why! That's Pa's 'named gun'!" And in no time the raiders fled and they never returned to the Cove. The boy actually called the gun by name, like many old timers did back then as each gun seemed to have its own sound and reputation. This was obviously a known local hunting gun in the hands of local militia fighting not for either side, but to protect hearth and home from both sides. That is a very interesting little-known way of fighting in the war. Incidentally, 2 local Cove women wrote a ballad about the great battle, and it was claimed to have been so long that it took longer to sing it than the fight actually was. I think there was only 1 person slightly wounded, a raider I think if memory serves. I have never found a copy of the ballad, and the account I read about the ballad said that it was not popular even then with teh Cove people. Probably really boring and sung poorly.

[Tom Ezell]

Re: Hunting guns use

One of the essays that Craig and I have been loosely collaborating on the past month or two has been the use of the .69 caliber smoothbore muskets, both percussion and flintlock in the Confederate ranks throughout the war. It's our thesis that the "universal Yankee killer" is a .69 smoothbore rather than a .577 Enfield, at least thru 1863 or so, and even later in the western armies.

We enactors tend to focus on the P1853 Enfield more than anything else because they're readily available, they're relatively inexpensive, and they have at least a reputation of being the primary, distinctive Confederate infantry arm. However the 1861 inventories would show that there were more .69 caliber smoothbore muskets sitting in the various U.S. Army and assorted southern state arsenals in January 1861 than the total number of Enfields imported into the Confederacy during the duration of the War.

For example, in the Federal arsenals in January, 1861, the Ordnance Department reported an inventory of 22,821 M1855 rifle-muskets, 12,508 .58 caliber M1855 and M1841 short rifles, 42,011 .54 cal. M1841 short rifles, and 499,554 .69 caliber muskets. Some of these numbers fell into Confederate hands when the locals began seizing the federal arsenals in their community after secession, so it's a little difficult to separate these from what was available purely from state resources, but you can see the magnitude of how many pumpkin slingers were available. Zero Enfields, and no M1861 Springfields. Production of the Model 1861 Springfield was authorized in February 1861, and the Springfield Arsenal stood down to re-tool their production lines for the new musket. With the loss of the Harpers Ferry Arsenal in April 1861 to the Confederates, you can see what a twist this gave to the Odnance Dept. The first M1861s don't start showing up in the hands of the troops until very late in 1861, and the early months of 1862. Shiloh and the Seven Days campaign were likely the first opportunities for these weapons to come into Rebel hands in any appreciable numbers.

Documentation indicates that the first imported Enfields came into the Confederate ports in late September, 1861, and that approximately 3,000 of these were issued to A. Sydney Johnston's army beginning in November 1861. Cleburne's Brigade were some of the first to receive these, and the issued included a large number of the 2-banded Enfield Rifles that are considered taboo in the modern enactor ranks. My particular interest, and so most of my focus has been in the Mississippi valley, and the Rebs at Belmont and Forts Henry and Donelson were armed primarily with flintlock muskets and hunting shotguns. The 27th Alabama at Forts Heiman, Henry, and Donelson was armed exclusively with shotguns and bowie knives, and considered well-armed for the time. (See Cannon, Bloody Banners and Barefoot Boys)

At Shiloh, in April 1862, the 6th and 7th Arkansas Regiments were clearly carrying the M-1822 flintlocks. Private Henry Morton Stanley of Co. E, 6th Arkansas, recalled in his memories of the battle: “Our weapons were the obsolete flint-locks, and the ammunition was rolled in cartridge-paper, which contained powder, a round ball, and three buckshot. When we loaded we had to tear the paper with our teeth, empty a little powder into the pan, lock it, empty the rest of the powder into the barrel, press paper and ball into the muzzle, and ram home.”

Colonel Robert G. Shaver, who commanded the Arkansas Brigade at Shiloh, noted in his official report on the battle: “The Seventh and Sixth Arkansas labored under great disadvantage during the engagement; being armed with flint and steel muskets, they were rarely able to do any execution, the enemy always endeavoring to fight us at long range. It is with great difficulty that men can be made to stand their ground when they are suffering from the fire of their adversaries and are in possession of the knowledge that from the inefficiency of their pieces they are doing no execution in return.” (Personally, I think Shaver's Brigade was hampered more by the weather at Shiloh than their weaponry, having sat out in the woods in the rain for nearly three days before the Confederate attack was launched.)