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Armed Confederates in Frederick

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  • Armed Confederates in Frederick

    This is one of my favorite images taken during the Civil War. According to the Historical Society of Frederick County, Maryland, the image is of armed Confederate troops marching west on Patrick Street in Frederick, Maryland on September 12, 1862 to the Battle of Antietam.

    Can anyone determine the type(s) of weapons these soldiers are carrying in the photo? Are they 42 Springfields? Enfields?
    Attached Files
    Last edited by paulcalloway; 02-19-2004, 10:29 PM. Reason: Uploading a lower resolution image at the request of the owner of the image.

  • #2
    Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

    ya man,

    that's one of my favorite pictures, if not my all time favorite.
    Ryan Burns
    The Skulkers Mess

    GGG Grandson of 1st Sgt. Albert Burns
    3rd Mississippi Infantry Regiment

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    • #3
      Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

      Not many knapsacks. I can spot three easily, even fewer kepis.

      The longarms look robust but it is probably from glare and movement.

      I have been told that this could be Cooke's men from Walker's brigade (46 NC, 48 NC, 27 NC, 3 AK, and 30 VA) but I have nothing to back this up.
      If that is true then a heavier bored rifled musket with slightly larger dimensions than a Richmond/Fayetteville/Enfield would fit.
      North Carolina entered Maryland shouldering quite a few of these ''common rifles''.

      But again, it is just a guess.
      Last edited by Vuhginyuh; 02-02-2004, 10:41 AM.
      B. G. Beall (Long Gone)

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      • #4
        Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

        Yeah, this photo is phenomenal. This would be an ideal one to use that Photoshop program on to bring out all the details (hint, hint).
        Michael Comer
        one of the moderator guys

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        • #5
          Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

          Hey, don't those farbs know you come to the shoulder when you halt!? :)
          Gerald Todd
          1st Maine Cavalry
          Eos stupra si jocum nesciunt accipere.

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          • #6
            Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

            Greetings,

            This all goes to reinforce my belief that so-called "farb" behavior and commands can be sometimes uncomfortably close to wartime reality.

            I remember reading an Orphan Brigade diary entry by John S. Jackman (9th KY) mentioning his company "playing a joke" on an officer during drill by refusing to right-face until being ordered to shoulder arms. The problem with Jackman's account is that, as can be readily noted, the joke was actually on Jackman and his comrades. Per Hardee, they were wrong and the commander was right since, of course, troops not commanded to shoulder arms automatically go to the "trail" when facing.

            I ought to do an article about "theory vs. reality" when it came to delivering actual commands in the field. That would really get some folks riled....

            Regards,

            Mark Jaeger
            Regards,

            Mark Jaeger

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            • #7
              Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

              Is there a higher resolution scan of this photo available? This seems to be a medium resolution jpeg, that is difficult to zoom in on without all manner of distortion and pixelation.
              ~ Chris Hubbard
              Robert L. Miller Award Winner No. 28 May, 2007
              [url]www.acwsa.org[/url]

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              • #8
                Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

                I've been told that the original plate is in private hands and that there have only been a couple of "contact prints" made. Most of the prints that are available are copies of copies. I know of one of the contact prints locally and will try to get it scanned and posted.
                Marlin Teat
                [I]“The initial or easy tendency in looking at history is to see it through hindsight. In doing that, we remove the fact that living historical actors at that time…didn’t yet know what was going to happen. We cannot understand the decisions they made unless we understand how they perceived the world they were living in and the choices they were facing.”[/I]-Christopher Browning

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                • #9
                  Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

                  The National Museum of Civil War Medicine has a 3' X 4' enlargement of this remarkable image. I just pulled it into my office for a closer look. Most of the weapons are quite blurred. There are three that appear to have very robust barrel bands with slings that appear to terminate at the 2nd band. There is also one fairly clear hammer ( on a musket in the fore ground) that looks more curvered than the post 1842 hammers of the 1855, 1861, etc. It is so hard to tell but these look like they have more characteristics of smooth bore muskets than anything else. That said I am basing this on only three or four muskets.

                  It is interesting to see the lack of kepi style hats. I can really only be sure of about three. I do love the very wide brimmed light color hat on the man on the camera side of the street just above the sign. I wonder how many of us would call the wearer something less than polite if he showed up at an event?
                  [FONT="Book Antiqua"]George Wunderlich
                  Executive Director
                  National Museum of Civil War Medicine and
                  The Letterman Institute [/FONT]

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                  • #10
                    Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

                    Originally posted by georgewunderlich
                    The National Museum of Civil War Medicine has a 3' X 4' enlargement of this remarkable image. I just pulled it into my office for a closer look. Most of the weapons are quite blurred. There are three that appear to have very robust barrel bands with slings that appear to terminate at the 2nd band. There is also one fairly clear hammer ( on a musket in the fore ground) that looks more curvered than the post 1842 hammers of the 1855, 1861, etc. It is so hard to tell but these look like they have more characteristics of smooth bore muskets than anything else. That said I am basing this on only three or four muskets.

                    It is interesting to see the lack of kepi style hats. I can really only be sure of about three. I do love the very wide brimmed light color hat on the man on the camera side of the street just above the sign. I wonder how many of us would call the wearer something less than polite if he showed up at an event?
                    See post # 3 above. We are thinking the same things.

                    A couple of hats are pinned up with a device.
                    What always gets me is the droopy appearance of many of the brims. Rain storm that morning?

                    Two men at the right of the column, above the ''O'' on the sign, look like they are drinking from their canteens. I see a bent elbow there and a canteen shape at he terminal.

                    And the pards who have seen the photographer.

                    There is one part I cannot figure. Look at the left post of the sign and up to the center of the line. There is an eliptical blob of thing/person at a 45 degree angle up and away from the viewer. What is that? Looks like a surf board with a hat sized object on it. And yes, I know, there are no waves in Frederick.

                    There is another image taken that day at street level that shows that life goes on. A man in a hat similar to the bright colored one in this shot is window shopping with a woman.
                    Last edited by Vuhginyuh; 02-02-2004, 07:08 PM.
                    B. G. Beall (Long Gone)

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                    • #11
                      Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

                      I don't know about rain but here is a possible explanation for the damp appearance. (Different unit but same time period).

                      "We marched through several towns in Maryland and through fine farms and stopped at Frederick City, Md., on the Monocacy river, remained there one day and washed our clothes in the river and put them on wet. We were trying to drown some of the lice of which we had plenty. We had not washed our clothes in about a month, and the bugs were getting unbearable."

                      William Judkins
                      Co. G, 22nd Ga.
                      Wright's Brigade
                      Marlin Teat
                      [I]“The initial or easy tendency in looking at history is to see it through hindsight. In doing that, we remove the fact that living historical actors at that time…didn’t yet know what was going to happen. We cannot understand the decisions they made unless we understand how they perceived the world they were living in and the choices they were facing.”[/I]-Christopher Browning

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

                        Originally posted by marlin teat
                        I don't know about rain but here is a possible explanation for the damp appearance. (Different unit but same time period).

                        "We marched through several towns in Maryland and through fine farms and stopped at Frederick City, Md., on the Monocacy river, remained there one day and washed our clothes in the river and put them on wet. We were trying to drown some of the lice of which we had plenty. We had not washed our clothes in about a month, and the bugs were getting unbearable."

                        William Judkins
                        Co. G, 22nd Ga.
                        Wright's Brigade
                        ARE THEY NOT MUDDY FOOTPRINTS ALL OVER THE FOREGROUND?
                        B. G. Beall (Long Gone)

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                        • #13
                          Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

                          Maybe they are carrying British 1842 type arms? It seems to me that the barrel bands are invisible. The British 1842 barrel was held in with Pins, like the Brown Bess etc, rather than with Bands. Also, the .75 calibre bore would explain the "robust" look. Also, it seems the stock comb profile is very similar to that of the British 1842, on the visible arms. In addition, one of them appears to have along range sight of sorts located part the way up the barrel, leading to the possibility that these are 1842 British Rifled-muskets.

                          Consequently, this type of arm is carried on the list of small arms in the Confederate Ordnance manual of 1863, as arms "currently in service" noting that it is entirely possible then that the arms were in service a year earlier.

                          Of course the photo is pretty hard to see.
                          ~ Chris Hubbard
                          Robert L. Miller Award Winner No. 28 May, 2007
                          [url]www.acwsa.org[/url]

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

                            Originally posted by Vuhginyuh
                            ARE THEY NOT MUDDY FOOTPRINTS ALL OVER THE FOREGROUND?
                            I have examined a very clear copy and I honestly don't see any muddy footprints. Also, there don't seem to be any puddles in the obvious places (gutters). Judging from the fact that there is not as much movement blurring as would be expected, a small lens apeture and quick exposure was probably used which could have only have been accomplished in bright sunlight. Also note the relative absence of shadows. Bright light and small shadows indicate the time to be mid-day. Perhaps this could narrow down the identity to units that passed through town around noon.
                            Marlin Teat
                            [I]“The initial or easy tendency in looking at history is to see it through hindsight. In doing that, we remove the fact that living historical actors at that time…didn’t yet know what was going to happen. We cannot understand the decisions they made unless we understand how they perceived the world they were living in and the choices they were facing.”[/I]-Christopher Browning

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Armed Confederates in Frederick

                              I've been told that the original plate is in private hands and that there have only been a couple of "contact prints" made. Most of the prints that are available are copies of copies. I know of one of the contact prints locally and will try to get it scanned and posted.

                              Marlin Teat - I'm very interested in seeing your post if you are able to do this.
                              Last edited by billywebb; 02-10-2004, 12:26 PM.

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