Women in Men's Military Clothes

[Mgreer]

Is the woman in the knit coat wearing a Federal issued knit sack coat?

And poor women, slaves, and runaways would they or could they wear mens or boys shoes?

[brown]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

Other than the knit nature (which isn't even dead on to the blouse example you posted), I don't see many similarities. Appears to me that the front is overlapped far off center, though.
really nice image, though.

[Mgreer]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

I think it belongs to the man and she pinned it and rolled up the sleaves. I would think this because women are smaller than men and why would she have it pulled in such an awkward way?

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

If I correctly remember the earlier discussion of this photograph on this site, it dates back to the early months of the war. "Knit jackets" first appear on the Federal clothing cost list in G.O. 364 of November 12, 1863, so I don't believe the Federal government issued them at the time of the picture. States did, though, so I believe it could have come, one way or another, from the regiment's stores.

[KarinTimour]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

I'll agree that she might be wearing a men's knitted garment. I do think it originally buttoned up the front and she's pinned it to get it to fit. But the shoulders and upper sleeves fit her pretty well, so it might just be a sweater she made for herself that has stretched out and she needs it to be pinned closer to her. I personally think that you're seeing the button band on the left, where it's been pinned.

Knitted sack coat? I'm going to weigh in with a "no" because it looks to me like the rolled up sleeves don't have a great amount of "bulk" to them at the elbow. I also don't see the strong vertical lines that would be visible on the garment, because sack coats were knit in "brioche stitch."

Ok, non-knitters, bear with me on this. Knitted sack cloats were made of a particular stitch in knitting called a "brioche stitch." This is what gives the front of the knit sack coat the distictive and easily seen vertical lines in the fabric. Like you see when you take a picture of wide wale corduroy. When you knit with that stitch, the resulting fabric has a much larger "bulk" to it than the same knitted fabric just knit in a straight sheet.

If she were wearing a knitted sack coat, and rolled up the sleeves the way she has in this picture, the resulting rolls would be (IMHO) about twice the size that they are in this picture.

Note that she is also wearing a knitted hat/head covering, and someone on one of the knitting forums had tracked that pattern down. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's a knitter. Perhaps she made the sweater she's got pinned on her, perhaps it was cast off and she's grabbed it up to keep warm, and "made it do" by pinning it.

But in my opinion, it wasn't a former knitted sack coat.

'Would poor women..... wear men's shoes."

Depends on context. This woman is a laundress in a Union camp. She clearly is good at "make do" and if she needed a pair of shoes, wouldn't necessarily have a downside in wearing them. There are certainly mentions in diaries about wearing Pa's old shoes out when you had to muck out the barn, to save your shoes from the manure.

However, the question of "would women wear men's shoes" is often a more reenacting - oriented question of "rather than purchase women's shoes for my impression, how about if I just wear a pair of military brogans?" Not trying to say you're asking this question, but just in case others are reading it and thinking along these lines. Depending on the types of events and the context, if the woman in question is portraying a civilian not a military laundress, I'd advise against it on two fronts:

1. Having any military accoutrements when you are stopped by soldiers attracts attention and is dangerous. Where did you get those shoes/canteen/blanket? Did you rob the wounded? Are you in touch with guerillas who robbed the last supply train through here? Are you supplying the enemy? At best you could be taken into custody, and you might get summarily hung.

2. Men's feet are larger on several dimensions, and this will cause added stress to the wearer's feet if they don't fit. It's amazing to some people how much walking you do in reeancting -- even civilians. Shoes that don't fit, even in some small areas, over time, can cause real damage to one's feet.

My two cents,

Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Spinster]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

2. Men's feet are larger on several dimensions, and this will cause added stress to the wearer's feet if they don't fit. It's amazing to some people how much walking you do in reeancting -- even civilians. Shoes that don't fit, even in some small areas, over time, can cause real damage to one's feet.

And, lets take this bit of practical logic one step further. My modern shoe size is between a 6 and a 6 1/2, depending on how many pairs of stockings I wish to wear (and how hard it is to find modern shoes in this size). The equivalent in a men's shoe (ie, my Red Wing hunting boots) is a Boys size 4. And, in those boots, there is more clearance than I need in the height of the shoe box--even though I have a high arch.

In short, it would be pretty hard for me to find a pair of shoes that fit in a military camp--then or now.

I've also experimented a good bit with shoes, in multiple time periods--wearing several sizes up, with extra padding, and layers of lambs wool in order to keep my feet warm. Not a useful shoe on any sort of long trek, as they throw me off balance, because nothing is in the right place.

My best 'make-do' is actually a homemade shoe--cut out of hide with a good knife, punched with a sharp awl, sewn together, and some hide glue added for extra, and some grease worked in to stretch the toe box out. They look like the Hind Wheels of Destruction. They've also got less than a day's work in them, and only a small amount of tanned leather.

In short, if I was hard up for shoes, I'd be wanting and making another pair of homemade shoes, not wearing a pair made to fit a man.

[Mgreer]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

The shoe question was based more on slave women. I was asked by a spectator at an event what kind of food wear slave women wore. I told them either womens shoes or barefoot. Then they asked if they didnt have shoes would they wear men shoes? I didnt know so i thought i would post hear for future reference

[csabugler]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

Hey Marvin, did you get asked that question while riding that big black horse??

I found this

http://www.fullbooks.com/Slave-Narratives-A-Folk-History-of-Slaveryx25292.html

"We went barefooted in de summer and in de winter we wore brogan shoes.
Dey were made of heavy stiff leather."


I searched something like "slaves footwear in the United States" and got a lot of hits.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

A search for "negro shoes" or "nigger shoes" in the usual places with period documents(Documenting the American South, MOA, Google Books etc.) turns up quite a few hits, refering both to shoes made or homemade in the south, plus shoes commercially made in the north for exporting to the south. It seems to be another way of referring to the cheapest work shoes like brogans, but I couldn't come up with a definite answer as to whether they were typically made indiscriminately for both sexes, varying only in size, or whether they were always made in men's and women's. This one reference indicates they were indeed separated by sex:

Cook and Littlejohn advertised "Negro shoes, just received 1000 pairs of Negro shoes, consisting of boys, men's and women's, extra sizes. Russet and heavy brogans. The largest stock of Negro shoes on the market."

But it's hard to say if that was typical, or if at a certain lowest level, like the shoes that Terre mentioned, there weren't really men's or women's styles, there were just shoes, and thus the question as asked really isn't answerable.

This article implies that white women were reduced to wearing them:

CLARKE COUNTY [AL] JOURNAL, December 24, 1863, p. 2, c. 3...
New clothing is out of the question, and the old stock is failing very fast. Ladies were obliged in many instances to wear negro shoes and negro cloth.

I was hoping to find some images of slave women that showed their shoes, but between the barefoot ones and the ones whose skirts hide their feet, this was all I could find in a quick search: http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/ppmsc.00057 There are several versions of it on the web and in print, and in the best ones, you can see the shoes on the woman at right, and they look like very simple homemade-style shoes, similar but not identical to what the seated man is wearing.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Mgreer]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

Thank you all

Pete and Hank thank you for your info it was a gret help

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

More often in my research I've found that enslaved women wore shoes made for enslaved women. As many of the forum members know I've been doing detailed minutae study of Richard Eppes' plantations in southern Tidewater Virginia. For some examples:

Eppes noted in November 1852 "Paid for...Shoes mens $1.25. womens $1. do boys Boots $2.25."

In November 1855 he bought the enslaved community's shoes: paid $1.75 for boots, $1.50 for men shoes and $1.25 for women's shoes.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

Marvin,

I found this
Fifty Dollars Reward will be paid for the arrest and delivery to me of my negro man Abram, if taken outside the city or county, and $25 if within. He will doubtless try to go to Fredericksburg on the railroad track. He is 29 years old; black heavy build; 5 feet 8 or 10 inches high; had on light-colored fall clothes; heavy brogans. He was brought from King George county, Va., on Monday last. W. Colton,
mh 15--3t* Monument Hotel.

The Daily Dispatch: March 20, 1862. Richmond Dispatch. 4 pages. by Cowardin & Hammersley. Richmond. March 20, 1862. microfilm. Ann Arbor, Mi : Proquest. 1 microfilm reel ; 35 mm.
Institute of Museum and Library Services National Leadership Grant provided support for entering this text.

I also found this although unrelated :
a letter from the Contraband Relief Society, It is not related specifically to Brogans but a pretty neat find .

http://libx.bsu.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=%2FLSTACivWar&CISOPTR=2676&DMSCALE=50&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMMODE=viewer&DMFULL=0&DMX=0&DMY=29&DMTEXT=&DMTHUMB=0&REC=16&DMROTATE=0&x=65&y=176

To those so inclined, we say- send us, as soon as possible, supplies of blankets, quilts, shoes, stockings, coats, pants, shirts, children's clothing, hats, caps, dresses and under-clothing, both new and old; also serviceable cloths, linseys & c., simple household utensils, testaments and spelling books. Con-tributions of money are greatly desired to further the objects of the Society. Packages and boxes marked "Contraband Relief Society, St. Louis, " may be directed to "Care of Partridge & Co."

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

I just found this as well,

SEMI-WEEKLY RALEIGH REGISTER, May 7, 1861, p. 2, c. 6

William H. Avera
Will Patronize Home Manufacturies—
Who will Patronize him?

I wish to say to my customers and friends of Johnston county, that I now have in store a great variety of Boots, Shoes and Gaiters for Ladies, Gentlemen and Children, all of North Carolina Manufacture, and of Superior quality. Call and see them. I will have in store in a few days, Fayetteville sheeting, Osnaburgs, and Cotton Yarn, on consignment, for sale at Factory prices to Merchants, or small advance at retail. I am dealing in North Carolina Cassimeres, Jeans and Kersey, all of superior quality.
In addition to the above, I have a great variety of goods for the Spring and Summer trade, which will be3 sold low, very low for cash, or any kind of Produce. My terms are cash. Goods delivered to prompt paying customers on promise of payment in thirty days, interest charged from delivery of goods if payment be delayed longer.
Bacon, Corn, Flour and seed. Peas on hand for sale, for cash—would like to buy Beacon [sic?], Corn, Flour—would pay cash or any goods I have,
Wm. H. Avera,
Silverdale, Johnston county,
Address Smithfield, N. C.
P. S. I am prepared to furnish North Carolina Kersey and Negro Brogans to the planters of Johnston county, for the coming Fall and Winter, to order at 10 per cent on factory prices—any number of Shoes, from 6 to 14. Also, Boys and Women's Shoes to fit measures. Sample Shoes and Kersey can be seen at my Store in 20 days. W. H. Avera.
may 1—2m
N. C. Christian Advocate copy 4 times.

[Mgreer]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

Do we have any idea what these womens negro shoes looked like?

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: Women in Men's Military Clothes

There are some descriptions by former slaves who were interviewed in teh 1930s. Of course, there are numerous historical problems with only using that source but Helen Bradley Foster relied on them heavily in a still useful book New Raiments of Self.

Often enough for note both males and females discussed being given russet leather brogans which were difficult to move in. Some of the interviews with formerly enslaved people illustrates complaints about footwear as being insufficient and uncomfortable.

While Foster notes that slaves do not recall much about store bought shoes, by the antebellum years, much of the shoe making industry in Massachusetts was supplying the South with shoes. Some surviving slaveholders records do point to the purchase of shoes mostly in urban areas in which they were delivered to the farm/plantation. Often enough for note enslaved people's feet were measured so as to cut down on the need to constantly send shoes back to the person selling them. It seems however that even in the period slave holders complained about the quality of the shoes in contrast with the "high" prices. Because most often enslaved people received only one issue of shoes annually it is now an EXTREME rarity to find any shoes with a traceable history to enslaved people as you may imagine.