Model 1842 Defarb advice

[Pennvolunteer]

Gents,
With my impending retirement from the Army, my wife said, "buy yourself whatever you want!" So, I picked a defarbed 1842, but have been shopping around. I have looked at web sites and talked to John Zimmerman, Lodgewood Manufacturing and James River Arsenal. Prices vary, but I know the best prices aren't always the best deal.
Any adivse as I make this decision? Things to look for? Pros/Cons?

Appreciate any thoughts!

[Huck]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

Your wife said it, but you should have gone after this............

Wanna buy a Union fort?

[Pennvolunteer]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

And I thought a Henry was probably too greedy...

[DannyJoe]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

I have purchased "defarbed" weapons from all three, but do not have enough recent experience to comment on Zimmerman. My M1842 and P53 are from Lodgewood. I like the job that was done on both weapons, except that I had to reblue my P53 using Curt's posted process. My M1861 and M1841 are from JRA. Again, I liked the job that was done on both weapons. It is really a toss-up. IMHO Lodgewood and JRA do an excellent job "defarbing" the reproduction Italian weapons, but in either case, don't expect them to be spot-on when compared to the originals. Good luck with your M1842.
Regards,

[stri volunteer]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

You could do it yourself, there is not that much to it. Barring that, probably any of the three you mentioned would do a good job. It doesn't require much besides a stock refinishing with boiled linseed oil, removing the modern markings and replacing the front sight with a brass blade.

I would say if you want it marked "Harpers Ferry", maybe Zimmerman, if any year/date/Armory combo suits, then JRA or Lodgewood.

[Cyclesmith]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

I was just at Lodgewood a few weeks ago (I live 45 mins away)... and if memory serves they had a defarbed '42 in stock. Not 100% sure because I was looking at an enfield the had but I'm pretty sure it was hanging there too. I got a defarbed '42 there are few years ago and it really nice... best musket I ever owned!!

[Pvt.Sam.Dile]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

If you are lookingfor a defarbed zimmerman My friend is selling his Zimmerman 42, brand new never even taken out of the house! shipped with an extra ramrod and Italian bayonet.$800
Lrt me know asap cause there is another guy thinking about it.

The 42 is marked 1845 and shows Harpers Ferry on the lock plate.

When Zimmerman defarbs a weapon, all of the following is done: All modern markings a removed, the serial number is moved to the bottom of the barrel so as to be out of view, yet still legal. He blues all of the small furniture of the weapon, as was done to the originals. Small furniture refers to the small parts like screws, barrel band springs, etc. This condition, in addition to the bright clean metal is referred to as "armory bright" Zimmerman puts the correct viewed and proofed marks on the barrel and stock, as well as his personal cartouche mark on the stock. Also, the farby front site is removed and replaced with the correct brass blade sight. I suspect I am forgetting something, so I would refer anyone to Zimmerman himself. His shop number is 304-535-2558. A word of caution however, Mr. Zimmerman is a very to the point person, and sometimes may come off as a little harsh. Take it with a grain of salt. The man is truly a master of his trade.

[ndnchf]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

I drove to Harpers Ferry a few months ago, talked to Mr. Zimmerman and then left him my '42 to defarb. 3 weeks later I went back and picked it up. It was beautiful! He did everything Pvt. Sam mentioned, plus I had him change the lock into a an 1846 Harpers Ferry model. A buddy has a '42 defarbed by one of the other mentioned shops and it has a Harpers Ferry marked lock also. In my opinion, the Zimmerman stamped lock is far superior.

After seeing my '42, another guy in my unit took his '42 to him. He got it back a couple weeks ago and is VERY happy.

Mr. Zimmerman is master at what he does and an neat guy to talk to. He may be a bit of a curmudgeon too, but that's OK.

Steve Blancard
13 VA Inf.Co. A

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

Hallo!

While I do not ask anyone to substitute my judgment for their own...

IMHO, I would suggest that anyone "shopping" for so-called "de-farbed' guns do some research to try to be an educated consumer and an informed customer.

While it may be tedious, the topic of "who makes the best de-farbs" have been discussed many times and can be revisited through the SEARCH feature to pull up such discussions as:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3662

Mr. Zimmerman has done some fine work. Mr. Zimmerman has done some questionable work.
Lads experiencing the former sing his praises.
Lads experiencing the later curse him.

That being said, I have had two Zimmerman "de-farbed" M1842's. I still use one of his that I have reworked.

As a result of demonstrated "variation," my advice is buy Mr. Zimmerman's work off of his show table or from his shop rather than by mail so that one sees what one is getting.

Yes, I believe Mr. Zimmerman has hearing issues, and they are ascerbated by telephone communication.
But he is something of a curmudgeon at times in temperament and ideas, such as declaring that the Federal Government granted sole authorization for the use of "Harper's Ferry" to the residents of Harpers Ferry (and that it is against the law for anyone else to use the name.)

That being irrelevant, back to the discussion of so-called de-farbs.

In brief and to over-generalize:

1. With the exception of the second production M1822 (M1816 Type II) which were browned, the locks and hammers on the M1841 Rifle and the first version of the M1855 Rifle (both also having browned barrels) were color case hardened by quenching. Springs were heat blued by their heating and tempering. Screws were heat blued/blackened by their hardening process.
On "bright" arms, all of these were burnished or polished bright metal (With the exception of the M1863/M1864 Springfields when the hammers and locks reverted to color.)
The exception is rear sights that were sometimes left hardened black or sometimes polished bright.

In rare cases, mint M1842's and M1855/1861/1863/1864 are SOMETIMES found with springs and screws that were not "struck bright." There is some disagreement over this as to whether they left the arsenal that way or whether they were swapped out for "color" sometime in the future.

At any rate, heat blued or especially chemical blued furniture or parts is not NUG a correct feature to have.

Especially the chemical blued ramrods that Mr. Zimmerman offers.

2. Mr. Zimmerman does not always research the correct markings he uses. Meaning, incorrect stamps that should not be a gun are added. The most annoying is his use of a 1850/1860 style inspector's cartouche with his initials JAZ in the rectangular box rather than the circular and oval style typical of the M1842 (until added again when altered in the mid 1850's).
This remains problematical as we do not know if the customers wanted these stamps (and Mr. Zimmerman did not change their minds, or that was what he offered on his own.)

Granted, not too many lads know, or will fuss about, what they do not know- such as using Springfield Arsenal barrel proofs on say a Muir contract.

3. The biggest problem with Mr. Zimmerman's work is that he did not invest in steel stamps for the name and date markings he offers. Instead, he uses individual letter and number stamps that are hand-driven with a hammer.
This can result in the wrong font style and font size as compared to the original. Worse yet, it results in problems with the alignment, spacing, height, and depth of each letter or number in the name and date.
For example:



vs.




While beauty is in the eye of the beholder, some lads praise this work and workmanship. Some lads do not know. For some lads it is good enough. Some do not not care that it is not right. Etc., etc.

IMHO, my advice is do your homework and then be happy with your choice.

And again, I use a (reworked) "Zimmerman M1842 'defarb' myself, and do recommend some of Mr. Zimmerman's work and offerings as fine workmanship and a good value.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt
Former CW gunbuilder

[ndnchf]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

Curt,

Your observations and points are well taken. There really is no such thing as a perfect defarbing. Each shop does as they deem fit. My only observation had to do with the quality of the lock plate stamping when comparing my Zimmerman stamped plate to another.

Here's a shot of my Zimmerman '42 lockplate stamp. It does not look like individually letter stamps to me.



Steve Blancard
13 VA Inf. Co A.

[stri volunteer]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

I would have to say that Harpers Ferry lettering job is very precise for Mr Zimmerman, and he probably did not do it himself. He has assistants in the shop for the parts of the work he does not choose to do himself anymore. Or he may have invested in a Harpers Ferry stamp (it sure looks like it) since he is the only party legally able to use the name Harpers Ferry on a repro CW musket. (?) What a nut.

My Dad has a few good Zimmerman stories. He still has the letter Zimmerman wrote him threatening legal action when the "Civil War Musket" came out and some of Zimmerman's bogus "de-farbing" was revealled. He pointed out to JGZ that he had agreed to be taped during the entire interview and offered him a transcribed copy of the tape. That shut Zimmerman up. And from what he heard later, Zimmerman's lawyer laughed him out of his office when he found out John had agreed to be interviewed on tape. Zimmerman is of the opinion that Civil War reenactors don't know any better, so caveat emptor. "The reenactors will just trash the gun anyway, so why bother to make it correct?" at least that's what he says on the tape. I wasn not present at the time but I have heard the tape. You want to get the wording right when you quote something like that...

[kb35]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

Having just purchased a used '42 musket I have been reading the posts in this thread with some interest, and wanted to express my appreciation for the information passed on here. It has definitely inspired me to do my own research on what I want done as far as de-farbing my musket.

Any recommendations on sources of information either printed or online about the '42? is there anything in print that has a lot of images?

Thanks

K. Berry
Pvt. E Co. 35th OVI

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

Hallo!

IMHO, not much other than snippets here-and-there, and bits-and-pieces online, and the small sections in:

Craig Barry's "The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy--Lock, Stock and Barrel."

and

Curt Schmidt's "Smoothbores, Round balls and Buckshot: The .69 Options" in "The Columbia Rifles Research Compendium (2nd Edition)."

Curt

[stri volunteer]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

Herr K:

Dad says thanks for the plug but the first edition of Civil War Musket is sold out and out of print. He says Alibris has a couple copies for $195, or something ridiculous which is a lot for what we consider a sleep aid at our house. Also, your smoothbore article in CRRC-2 was one of the best treatments on the subject I have ever read. That book (CRRC-2) is out of print, too and going for twice the cover price on eBay. Crazy world isn't it?

As far as US 1842 defarbs, it is such a good weapon out of the box you can hardly go wrong...they are pretty easy to find used, which besides being cheaper adds a nice aged look to a weapon that was 15 years old (or so) and some with a bit of Mexican War use, when issued at the start of the US Civil War.

[Tincup]

Re: Model 1842 Defarb advice

I have an original M1842 (mfg. 1848) Springfield that I carry for non-shooting activities. The original is in very good condition and I don't want to shoot it. My question is, how practical is it to buy one of the civilianized m1842's and a reproductioin, and defarb the reproduction by replacing as many parts as possible/needed from the chopped original? Some one mentioned this idea in a older post and remarked at how lucky they were to be able to pull it off. Which reproductions are best suited for this strategy and should I buy the chopped down or civilianzied Springfield first?
Thanks for your kind consideration of my request.
Cordially,
Jim Currens