Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

[LibertyHallVols]

From those with some experience:

If one wanted to attempt to make a custom "repro-original" musket (for example, using a Dunlap stock, Whitacre barrel, and repro and original lock/hardware)...
1) Would a US M1861 be a good starting piece?
2) What (if any) specialized tools, skills, etc. would be required to complete one's first project?
3) What might be the likelihood of success making one's first '61 like this?

Why am I asking?
Well, you see, I have this "friend" who is thinking about trying it. I want to try to give him some good advice. :wink_smil

[dirtyshirt]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

Sent ya a PM buddy!

[David Fox]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

Not a direct answer, but to assemble a likely result from odd bits of finished and unfinished parts, the first 'tool' one should have on hand, to which reference may be had on an hour by hour basis, is an original piece. The second thing, unless one is skilled in working with wood and metal, is the opportunity to observe a craftsman experienced in this endevour. That said, Viet Cong peasants, with a world of patience and a flat rock for a shop were able to cobble functioning replicas of M.1911A1 .45 semi-auto pistols.

[benjaminmcgee]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

Hello,

I built several muskets with a pile of original/repro parts. I could send you some pics if you pm me your email. ( I cant seem to figure out how to post pics) You could post them if you like. The only specialised tool, which is very important, is a drill press. Other than that, a decent set of carving tools and assorted files. I've built a couple 61's and a rifled 42. I find the hardest part is fitting the barrel bands as it is trial and error. Also tricky (for me) is drilling the tang screw accurately. Post pics of your progress!

Ben McGee

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

Hallo!

As a former Once Upon a Time CW gun-builder myself...

It is VERY hard to say as different lads have different skill levels and abilities. Not to mention basic tools (I knew a lad who owned ONLY one tool, a small 4-in-1 file/rasp).
And a had a pard who went into the gun-making business and produced several dozen really bad pieces before he got "okay but not good." ("Unforgiving" power tools were his bane.)

IMHO...

1. Access to originals to measure and replicate.
2. A drill and bits, or a drill press for drilling straight holes (and an eye for working in three dimensions)
3. A screwdriver or three.
4. An X-Acto knife and a few spare blades
5. A sharp flat, or rasp, and rat tail file or three
6. Some emory boards
7. Some assorted sandpapers

The hardest part is the skill of inletting. "Pre-carved" stocks are IMHO about 90-95% "done." One needs some skills in being able to "fit" parts where they need to go by inletting black fitting and patiently, carefully removing wood WITHOUT removing too much.
Too much and uneven removal results in "wood to metal" gaps. While one ideally wants the look to be as if the metal part GREW into the wood, one can get by with a loose fit.
NUG what one sees on beginner work is that the wood has been removed unevenly resulting in gaps and spaces where there should be none between metal and wood. Anotehr area is the barrel, where common beginner mistakes in inletting the tang and barrel result in a wavy profile to the forestock, as well as random and uneven gaps between stock and barrel. As well, as holes that are not drilled at 180 degrees (in 3D) so they are same height and placement on both sides of the hole.

The pard I mentioned above tried to compensate by using brown tinted Brownell's Accru-Glass epoxy to fill the gaps and holes- but ended up with what looked like shiney root beer candy embedded in the stock here and there, and around the buttplate, lockplate, triggerplate, barrel, tang, and nosecap- and random holes where like the ramrod hole drill bit wa;lked through the side of the forestock...

IMHO still, these things can be overcome with PATIENCE and proceding very slowly as wood is easier to take off in a second or two than it is to put back on.

Curt
Measure Twice, Cut Once Mess

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

Thanks for the input. Curt, I like your description of the wood to metal fit looking as if the pieces "grew together". That is one of the features on originals that I love to see in a well-executed custom-build.

I may take this up as a project, though I'm still pondering my options. If I do, it would make a great series for my AC blog.

Brandon,
I recall you carrying a HP US M1816/22 cone-conversion at Hodge's pres march in 2000. You did a good job on that one!

Perhaps the hardest part is getting access to an original. I don't have an original '61.

Whatever I end up doing, it will be many months away. I have a bunch of stuff going on in the "real world" right now. The farthest I might get would be acquiring parts by sometime this summer. We'll see.

I'd be happy to hear some solutions folks have come up with for some of the above-mentioned challenges:
Drilling the hole for the tang screw
Fitting the band springs
Fitting the barrel in the channel
etc.

Thanks, again!

[M.Latham]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

John,

1. No, in my opinion a Model 1861 is not a "good" beginner piece. The fit at the curve of the buttplate being a little tricky the first time around. As is the fit of bolster to lockplate. Some use accraglass to make this easier, but I recommend against it. I would instead suggest a Model 1842 musket, as this has easier buttplate fit, due to there being no curve. The bolster fit is easier as well.

2. The ability to look at an original and really "see" it in terms of details is the first and most basic requisite. As far as specialized skills go I would add to the suggestions of others only this, be prepared to spend time really thinking through the steps of the build, and be creative when needed. For instance, when fitting the tang screw, I made a stand for my drill press that had a small "pin" sticking up. I then place the fitted barrel in the stock and use this "pin" to rest the stock on in the location where the tang screw exits the wood, and bring the drill bit down to the barrel tang. This gives the exact angle of the tang screw. I would then start the hole and finish with a hand drill.

3. If you really take your time, get good practical advice and work within the limits of your skill set, a good piece can be accomplished.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

Not trying to hijack the thread, but the question I've always had is if a person's "friend" were very willing, but perhaps lacked the time/patience/skill/common sense to do a project such as this themselves, is there anywhere a comprehensive list of craftsmen willing to take on such a project who can do it with the highest level of skill?

Understanding of course that the layout in materials alone will be twice what an Italian reproduction runs, and the gunsmith's time will nearly double that, does anyone know where might I direct my "friend" to look to find those more willing and able than he to undertake such a project?

[M.Latham]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

Dan,

In a word, "no".

The basic problem is this, if I build a custom musket / rifle / carbine etc... usually by the time I have gotten all the parts needed, and have spent the requisite time building the piece, what can I possibly charge that someone would pay?

Years back I built a first model 1855 rifle, which in parts alone cost me approximately $1000, and then I spent another 80+ hours in the build. I think it came out great, just the way I wanted... However what could I possibly charge for an item like that that anyone would reasonably pay? What is a reasonable hourly rate for a custom builder?

Usually a custom musket is a labor of love, and would cost more than most people would be willing to pay.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

I know of a couple self proclaimed "custom" gunmakers that do primarily N-SSA work but they do not quite grasp what a (re)enactor wants and needs in terms of the details. And then there is apparently no way to sell a custom made musket for what you have in it? Well how about that. I have done a couple projects like that. We call those learning experiences. Knowing my pal Wickett as well as I do, my recommendation would be to have the stock done professionally, get a Hoyt or Whitacre barrel and rebuild the lock on an original plate or get an original lock. BINGO, all done. John can just about manage a needle and thread, actually manage them quite well, but power tools? Watch out for the splatter. I see a trip or two to the Emergency Room and missing digits about which John would have to yak in firper at events about how they were shot off at Chickamauga back in '63.

Remember, a 95% inlet Dunlap stock takes a great deal of work to finish that last 5%. Fine if you are a professional woodworker. You risk too easily ruining the $250 stock if you are not. One does not pick up a violin and play like Yehudi Menuhin. A much better idea is to start with a Euroarms stock blank and do the final finishing on it...all the inletting work has been done. James River Armory used to make them that way. Plus then you know the Whitacre or Hoyt barrel and original lock will just drop right in. Anybody can do the BLO final finishing and assembly if you can wipe with a rag and turn a screw driver. Wickett can just about be trusted to do that much. Another great idea is to buy an original with a decent stock and put a new barrel in it or have the original barrel re-lined. Depends on how deep your pockets are.

A cone-in-barrel musket is a good one to do, like that US 1816 that fellow over on the Todd Watts thread is working on.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

Hallo!

But, there is a saying joked about by "custom-builders" and their customers that one NEVER sees a builder's first few attempts at building.

Yes, I have three friends all missing parts of their fingers.

And a Double Yes. "Custom" work is largely outside of the realm of even most all of the "authentic minded" lads, and is a labor of love. A couple of years ago I sold one of my M1855 RM's (Type II) for $600 after having had it at a local blackpowder shop for over a year at $800 then reduced to $700 then reduced to $600. (The last M1861 barrel with sights I bought cost $375.00.)

:)

Curt

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

And a Double Yes. "Custom" work is largely outside of the realm of even most all of the "authentic minded" lads, and is a labor of love. A couple of years ago I sold one of my M1855 RM's (Type II) for $600 after having had it at a local blackpowder shop for over a year at $800 then reduced to $700 then reduced to $600. (The last M1861 barrel with sights I bought cost $375.00.)

Curt, As you have said on many occasions, firearms are a largely unaddressed area of authenticity for the vast majority of reenactors, readership of this website included. There have been a number of attempts in recent years (several of them quite good) to defarb Italian reproduction muskets. But, in the end, you still have a heavy barrel, or other issues not addressed.

The current enfatuation with Enfields confounds this problem. Even the best reproduction (early Parker Hale's) are a half-measure because, while they are a fine firearm, they are a poor stand-in for the Birmingham guns most folks want because they are a reproduction of a Type 4. In the end, you may end up with a very nice musket, but at a lot higher cost than is required for some of the other repro US arms.

Speaking from experience, a custom built Enfield, similar to the '61's, '42's, etc. thats we are discussing here, is less cost-effective than simply buying an original in fine condition. When you think about it, that's a heck of a statement!

For Authenticity on a budget, you can't beat the Armi-Sport 42.
For a custom-build on a larger budget (but on a budget none the less), I think the US M'61 is the way to go.

In speaking to Craig about this the other day, he brought up a great point that David Fox made somewhere on here:
The sole purpose of an infantryman was to transport his musket and deploy it against the enemy at the will of the commanders of the army. Viewed in this light, it is one of the most (if not "the" most) critical elements of an infantryman's impression. Given the talk about "experiences" at events here, one is not having a "true" experience if you are toting an overweight musket, handling a musket with an oversized "chunky" stock, or pointing/drilling with a musket that is not balanced as were the originals.

"Labor of Love" is an accurate description. Using an original is easy when compared to the effort required to acquire parts and build yourself or find a gunsmith who shares your vision and shelling out the dough (and waiting) to see the final product.

I appreciate the insight on this, folks!

[M.Latham]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

Craig,

I do not personally know Mr. Wickett, so I cannot vouch for any skills he does or does not possess.

However, if he has the time and inclination to tackle such a project I can not help but think he can succeed if he has good practical advice and thinks through the process. This is not rocket science as the saying goes. If he has the attention span needed to sew and reproduce detailed original garments, this should also be in the realm of the possible for him or anyone else.

I would encourage anyone who wanted to tackle such a project, and the resulting experience gained would help give an understanding of a little explored aspect of the hobby.

[dirtyshirt]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

Oh, I forgot, a good wood rasp is VERY helpful as well.

[ACo.]

Re: Makin' Muskets: How to get started?

I was going to post some thoughts but Curt and Mark have pretty much said it all. It sounds simple but it is not and the cost to have a custom builder (who understands military arms, most longrifle makers don't) will add immensely to the cost.

If I am not breaking any rules of the Forum, I would like to add a link to the only web tutorial for gun building that is worth looking at. Please realize that building from a Dunlap stock will allow you to skip some of the steps discussed but it gives an idea of the order in which procedures should be followed. Please read from start to finish, it will give an idea of procedures and tools at least. There are several good books on gun building as well. If this is not allowed, Moderators please remove the link:

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/tutorials/brooks/Brooks1.html

TP: I don't see any issues with the link. Thanks for posting it! John Wickett