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  • AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

    Gents -

    Just looking for opinions here.

    I do a mid-war Confederate impression (June 1862-December 1863). Armament for it runs the gamut, but other than an Enfield P53 the main selections would be either an 1842 Springfield or an 1816/22 Conversion. Both show up in my research as having been issued and carried during this time. Either would be appropriate.

    My question is this - the Armi M1842 seems to be a popular choice, in smoothbore. It is much more authentic out of the box than most others, and is not yet ridiculously priced. I am not a fan of the rifled version, simply because there just were not that many of them out there and it is highly unlikely that I would have been issued one. The 42 smoothbore seems ubiquitous enough that it would work for many impressions - early, mid, even some late war events.

    However, the Pedersoli M1816/22 conversion (the "Harper's Ferry Colt Conversion") has me intrigued. It is ungainly and monstrous. It is appealing and I like it. It just looks Confederate, and it would not take much work to match it to the Virginia conversion in Echoes of Glory. I realize there are some authenticity issues with markings, however it seems as though percussion conversions are drastically underrepresented out there. But, judging by the price, I can see why. I am not sure I understand why this musket is going for upwards of $1200.00. Is it a quality issue?

    Any thoughts out there?

    Thx.
    R
    Rich Libicer
    Fugi's Brown Water Mess

    6th North Carolina - 150th First Manassas, July 2011
    4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Valverde, February 2012
    6th Mississippi Adjunct - 150th Shiloh, April 2012
    4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Glorieta Pass, May 2012
    21st Arkansas Adjunct - 150th Prairie Grove, December 2012
    5th Confederate, Co. C - 150th Chickamauga, September 2013
    Haitus...... Until Now


  • #2
    Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

    Rich,
    If you want a smoothbore, and you want to stay within the parameters of "the norm", I'd say go with a M1816/1822 percussion conversion. Why? There were many more of them out there in comparison to the '42. NOW, . . . here is what else I would advise: eschew the repro, and find a junked up original and restore it. I ran across a "barn gun" at a gun show about 1990, and fortunately the barrel had never been chopped. A Dunlap stock, and some repro bands and hardware from S&S and "poof!" an original/repro weapon at a fraction of the cost. Shop around, patience will probably net you a good deal you'll be happy with.

    Your madness may vary,
    Warren Dickinson


    Currently a History Hippy at South Union Shaker Village
    Member of the original Pickett's Mill Interpretive Volunteer Staff & Co. D, 17th Ky Vol. Inf
    Former Mudsill
    Co-Creator of the States Rights Guard in '92

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

      I am not sure I understand why this musket is going for upwards of $1200.00. Is it a quality issue?
      Pedersoli is Italian for "insanely expensive." That's why everyone's so bummed about their recent acquisition of Euroarms.
      Bob Muehleisen
      Furious Five
      Cin, O.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

        You'd be surprised at what you can find if you look hard enough. Last year I picked up an original 1822 from Simpsons LTD for just over $800. At one point in time the forearm was removed, as well as two of the barrel bands, but the barrel, lock, and all other hardware present was original, and it bore an Ohio stamp on the reverse of the breech. While I've since sent it on to greener pastures in another's hands, it was a great find that I only stumbled into because I decided to check out their website one day. Two trips to Galesburg later, and I was very happy.
        Bob Welch

        The Eagle and The Journal
        My blog, following one Illinois community from Lincoln's election through the end of the Civil War through the articles originally printed in its two newspapers.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

          Hallo!

          The larger issue is that the Pedersoli so-called M1816 was something of a clever Italian marketing job that allowed them to rehash and offer another product with minimal retooling and changes from their M1777 "Charleville."

          Five issues or observations:

          1. Historically, compared to the oriignals, one has a "hybrid" French M1777 "Charleville" and U.S. M1822.

          2. An issue is that the middle band is in the wrong location for the U.S. M1822.

          3. An issue is that the Pedersoli is a Colt contract type side drum" conversion one of the more rarer of the work done to alter M1822's to percussion, and not so likely a "Confederate" arm other than by using the possibility or fiction of a CS Ordnance Department battelfiled pick up.

          4. An issue is that while a Colt contract alteration, Pedersoli does not use the percussion hammer used by Colt.

          5. Six prototype model samples were initially made in 1817 that carry the lockplate date of 1817, thise to be used for contractors to have a sample or pattern to go by. The contractors still "screwed it up" slightly,
          and even Springfield messed it up maKing their own changes to what was suposed to be the sample pattern. (Negotiations with contractors and further changes went on for five more years before a final version was decided upon in 1822. Thirty new prototype M1822's were made up for the contractors to have a pattern sample.

          Yeah, yeah... The M1816 comes from Arcadi Gluckman's 1959 book referencing an original document dated 1816 that authorized the making of the six protypes in 1817, and Gluckman's thinking has become pretty much a Hobby and Collector standard of sorts.

          The best way I can describe a Pedersoli M1816 conversion is...

          that it is kinda/sorta simiilar to a rare small number of M1822 alterations that were contracted for by the Confederacy from "local gunmsiths" who then went ahead and did an alteration by using an uncommon Colt design side drum with clean-out screw and a locally made percussion hammer. (One can feebly try to find an actual Colt alteration hammer but they are really rare and hard to find in any condition.)
          I had one, and was going to replace the Colt side drum with just a more PEC civilian one as seen on tons of gunsmith and even a few arsenal reworked guns. But sold it off.

          IMHO, the M1842 is a better choice. (But yes, considering the numbers of altered to percussion M1822's around in 1861... it would have been nice had the Italians actualyl made on instead of tryiong to be clever and repackage their M1777 "Charleville" two time over.

          Curt
          Curt Schmidt
          In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

          -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
          -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
          -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
          -Vastly Ignorant
          -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

            Hello Rich, Last year I was making almost the same choice. I liked the Armi Sport 1842. But the Pedersoli M1816/22 "felt" more Confederate. I felt like I could get away with the colt conversation because they looked "somewhat" like the same style of alteration as the arms that came out of the Memphis Arsenal But ,as everyone says, the '42 is much more historically authentic. But to be honest, I just did not like having a '42 that said "Springfield" on it. Not southern enough for me. On an online auction, I ran across an Armi Sport '42 that someone (maybe Zimmerman) had defarbed that included a Harper's Ferry lockplate instead of that Springfield lockplate. The Harpers Ferry lockplate made a lot of difference for me. I am very please with the 42 and the price I paid for it. And it sings a bit of Dixie now. At least insofar as a reproduction goes.

            Warren has a good idea about putting together a parts gun. Sometimes junkers are sold for under $1,000.00 that you can fix up. This past year I saw a Remington conversion in good shape that sold for around $800.00. So there are still deals out there if you take your time and keep your eyes open. And there are a few really good NSSA makes of M1816/22 conversion and '42
            barrels and sellers of other parts. I think if I had more patience and money I would have gone that route. Good luck.

            Dan Stewart

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

              Thanks gents. I am still in a bit of a quandary. The 16/22 choice from Pedersoli is daunting in price, but then again so is picking up a barn gun and dropping the coin to get it up to speed, unless I can get as fortunate as some of you! One thing that is hindering me is that there is definitely a lack of 42s out on the market for sale. I guess they are all being picked up for Manassas. But everyone, and I mean everyone seems to be out of them. My son is planning on coming to Manassas and I hoped to have him properly armed. That is becoming a definite challenge.

              It is tempting to just pick up the Pedersoli, work on it, and get it presentable, and let the boy use the Enfield. The only issue is that I would be pretty limited for mid- to late-war events with it. By then my unit would have been outfitted (or outfitted themselves) with Springfields, Lorenz or Enfields, except for those who chose to hang on to the pumpkin slinging 1842s.

              I appreciate all the advice. I'll keep surfing and see what I can find.

              VR,
              Rich Libicer
              Fugi's Brown Water Mess

              6th North Carolina - 150th First Manassas, July 2011
              4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Valverde, February 2012
              6th Mississippi Adjunct - 150th Shiloh, April 2012
              4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Glorieta Pass, May 2012
              21st Arkansas Adjunct - 150th Prairie Grove, December 2012
              5th Confederate, Co. C - 150th Chickamauga, September 2013
              Haitus...... Until Now

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

                Although probably too late to find something by Manassas, take a look at auctionarms.com or gunbroker.com. I bought a really sweet, original 1816/22 Springfield conversion musket with no pitting last year for a paltry $600. Its definitely worth a look.

                Paul McKee
                Paul McKee

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

                  If you want to get freaky there's a 1816 Remington Maynard Conversion on Gunbroker right now with the buy now option of like $940.00.

                  But if it comes down to the repro, I agree with Curt that the 1842 is the way to go. Its a really well made arm and compared to many of the other repops out there really requires a lot less defarbing. I love mine.

                  -Sam Dolan
                  Samuel K. Dolan
                  1st Texas Infantry
                  SUVCW

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

                    Gents -

                    Thanks for all the info. A fine pard may have hooked me up with a VERY nice original 1822 conversion. We are working on the deal. It is in excellent condition - the only issue is a missing front sling swivel and a small armory-repaired crack behind the lock plate. The metal is very nearly armory bright, hardly any pitting anywhere, and the wood is good. It has been dissassembled, inspected, greased & oiled and is in live-firing condition.

                    So, now, I must ask for advice on restoration.....Any suggestions thrown my way would be greatly appreciated. I did a forum search but no luck. I would like to at least bring it up to wartime use look. Nothing shop new, just passing muster/inspection for field service. I am not a collector, so I plan to put this pumpkin slinger to use.

                    Mods, please feel free to let me know if I need to start another thread here....

                    VR,
                    R
                    Rich Libicer
                    Fugi's Brown Water Mess

                    6th North Carolina - 150th First Manassas, July 2011
                    4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Valverde, February 2012
                    6th Mississippi Adjunct - 150th Shiloh, April 2012
                    4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Glorieta Pass, May 2012
                    21st Arkansas Adjunct - 150th Prairie Grove, December 2012
                    5th Confederate, Co. C - 150th Chickamauga, September 2013
                    Haitus...... Until Now

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

                      Hallo!

                      In my heresies and sacrileges, I have restored a few, and have had other arms restored to the CW era condition.

                      Basically there is notihng to it. Just remove the 150 plus years worth of pitting, discoloration, patina, scratches, dents, gouages, and polish the metal smooth and bright and the wood stripped of its fungus layer of soft outer wood if it has it, and steam out the gross dents and dings, then reoil.

                      ;) :) :)

                      Unless it is a so-called "Type II M1816" that was all armory browned except the lock and cock (hammer).

                      ;) :)

                      Curt
                      Curt Schmidt
                      In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                      -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                      -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                      -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                      -Vastly Ignorant
                      -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

                        Hey thanks for the quick response there, Curt. So I guess I could have my work cut out for me.....

                        The seller made a good point that I did not consider - that being this weapon would have already seen one war and 30 years of military use prior to the CW. With that perspective, it is in pretty fine fettle. I think I will just clean up/polish the metal to somewhat bright (keeping the stampings and a bit of patina - maybe with vinegar and a little very light brushing of steel wool?). Honestly it does not need much except for the buttplate and the lock. Then set to work on the wood as you suggest. The wood does not appear spongey or fungus layered, in fact it looks pretty darn good. Just rough in a few places, particularly on the rear of the lock mortise where the repair was made. This does not look like one of those Indian-stored Enfields or cosmoline covered nightmares.

                        How do you "steam out" the gross dents and dings? Never done that.
                        Rich Libicer
                        Fugi's Brown Water Mess

                        6th North Carolina - 150th First Manassas, July 2011
                        4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Valverde, February 2012
                        6th Mississippi Adjunct - 150th Shiloh, April 2012
                        4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Glorieta Pass, May 2012
                        21st Arkansas Adjunct - 150th Prairie Grove, December 2012
                        5th Confederate, Co. C - 150th Chickamauga, September 2013
                        Haitus...... Until Now

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

                          Hallo!

                          You are correct, tha tis why I like to say "Civil War appearance" or what it looked like at the time of its use during the CW. It should not be mint and immaculate. (It should just not have 150 years of post CW "stuff" having happened to it.

                          Dings and dents are "compression" boo-boos. A scratch or a gouge takes away wood. Am impact dent compresses the fibres of the wood leaving a "depression." Many of the little ones and some of the medium ones can be "uncompressed" by steaming. Sometimes it is surprising or even "Shockng" as to have many can be steamed away, and then the stock refinished.
                          I take an iron (not my wife's curent one...), and a wet old wash cloth. Place the wash cloth over the dent, and pass the hot iron over it. The heat and the steam will reelase the wodo fibers under compression, and allow them to start to "pop' back into place. Some lad use a tea kettle and direct the flow of steam to the dent. Some lads use both. Sometimes you have to repeat the prcoess(es) several times over.
                          Most, many lads like to attack the stock with sandpaper removing wood aorund the dent to get the bottom of the dent to make it disappear. But, this is a more destructive way, and wastes good stock wood, not to mention sometimes, many times, one cannot sand too much off to get to the bottom or beyond of a dent without seriously destroying contours, profiles, straight lines, inspector's cartouches, etc., etc., in the stock that cannot really be removed.

                          Not all stocks hae been "fungi'ed by surface, or worse yet internal fungus (fungus gets inside of insect holes for example) aka as "dry rot.". Just as not all stocks have been be attacked by insects leaving pin holes or worse.
                          Some stocks are actually covered with a surface fungus that feeds on linseed oil. It gives the hard ABW or English Walnut stock a noticeably softer outer shell, and the soft outer layer being soft, had made the stock more prone to scractches, dings, or dents. Normally tohugh, it is easily removed with light sanding, and one has to go through a lot of sand paper becasue the soft fungus wood layer clogs up the sandpapers really quick.

                          Also on the metal, often times the rusting has created an "orange peel" pitting effect with zillions of smallish pin prick looking black holes uder the black discoloration patina. There is a limit to how much surrounding metal one can remove trying to get to the bottom of the "pits." And sometimes, ne can use Birchwood Casey's Rust and Blue Remover to remove the black iron oxide so even though there is some orange peel is not as obvious and noticeable when not as black.

                          And last but not least, "we" as a Hobby still often have a 1970's, 1980's mentality that any original not mater what its antique or relic condition is superior to a reproduction. And as a result, lads and units are often much more "tolerant" and "accepting" of even antiqued and medicore or poor condition originals because they are... "originals." So, one can often times use an antique or relic condition original that is less restred or not even restored and get high marks form fellow reenactors even though it does not look like it did when being used in the CW.

                          And with the oft-repeated "Collector's Warning" that removing any finish or patina from an original, or even agressively or overly cleaning one... is a sin and reduces its collector's value or resale value.. ;) :)

                          Curt
                          Firearm Heretic
                          Devil Gun Hound Mess
                          Last edited by Curt Schmidt; 06-12-2011, 05:26 PM.
                          Curt Schmidt
                          In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                          -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                          -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                          -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                          -Vastly Ignorant
                          -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

                            Gents -

                            Thanks for the discussion of the 42 repop vs 1816 conversion. I have just purchased this conversion musket from a reputable source. The pics are attached.

                            Any suggestions on restoration, or if any is even needed?

                            Thx in advance.

                            Rich
                            Rich Libicer
                            Fugi's Brown Water Mess

                            6th North Carolina - 150th First Manassas, July 2011
                            4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Valverde, February 2012
                            6th Mississippi Adjunct - 150th Shiloh, April 2012
                            4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Glorieta Pass, May 2012
                            21st Arkansas Adjunct - 150th Prairie Grove, December 2012
                            5th Confederate, Co. C - 150th Chickamauga, September 2013
                            Haitus...... Until Now

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: AS M1842 or Pedersoli 1816/22 Conversion

                              Rich and all,

                              Is there certainty that isn't a rifled '42?

                              Regards,
                              Fred Baker

                              "You may call a Texian anything but a gentleman or a coward." Zachary Taylor

                              Comment

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