Brigade Flags

[jaybird]

Pards,

I have found, in Hardtack and Coffee, a description of corps badges, and division and brigade flags. However, I have not found anyone with good descriptions of same.

For example, the 125th OVI was (at one time) in the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Division, 4th Corps, Army of the Cumberland. SO, am I correct in 'assuming' that the brigade flag would be:
1. triangular
2. blue field
3. white triangle in the center, with "4" (for corps and division i.d.)
4. red border

But what dimensions?
Also, anyone know of someone who could make decals out of this?

Thanks for any and all help (links and/or printed references appreciated),

Jay Reid
Albany, Georgia
125th OVI

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Brigade Flags

I THINK that only the AoP used these flags. At least I have never seen any documentation of these kinds of flag outside the AoP.

[billwatson]

Re: Brigade Flags

How were brigade flags used? Simply to accompany the brigadier, in the field and to mark his hq in camp?

[LWhite64]

Re: Brigade Flags

The flags accompanied the Brigadier in the field as well as marked his headquarters in camp.

Lee

[1stMaine]

Re: Brigade Flags

Comrade Jay,

The 4th Army Corps, Army of the Cumberland, used an entirely different design of designating flags, as did the 10th, 17th, and 21st Corps. Basically, the flags were of a square shape, 5'X5' for the Corps HQ and Division HQ, and a swallow-tail made from a same-size square for Brigade HQ flags.
The flags themselves had a red body with a square blue canton. A white bar designated the division number. 1st Division bar went from upper right to lower left of the canton. 2nd Division had two white bars forming a Saint-Andrews cross (think CS battleflag). 3rd Division had an additional white bar vertically crossing the Andrew's cross (think British Union Jack).
Brigade flags were identical in size and color/pattern, except cut as a swallow-tail, and, to designate the brigade, had a white star(s) centered between the canton and the base of the color, one star for each brigade. Therefore, first brigade had one star, second had two stars (painted vertically, one atop the other and centered in the space between the canton and the flag base), 3rd brigade had three stars, etc.
Corps HQ had a golden eagle, with wings upraised and out painted in the blue canton in lieu of white bars.
The engineer brigade had a flag, 6'high by 4' wide, divied into two equal areas, one above the other, and colored blue (top section) and white.
The pioneer brigade had a flag 4' high by 6' long divided into three sections of equal size, left to right, colored blue/white/blue. Centered in the white section was a wreath enclosing crossed axes, both wreath and axes in blue (think U.N. flag).
The division ordnance officers had a 3' square bright green flag with a white circle around crossed cannons (cannons similar to those on the Hardee pattern flags), with the words "U.S.Ordnance Department" in black letters painted onto the white circle, upper half only. The Corps Ordnance officer used this same flag, but flew it on a staff beneath a 4-foot long streamer of crimson material with the words "Chief of Ordnance" in white painted on it.

As I stated, this same sort of pattern flag, with some variances was used in the 10th, 17th, and 23rd corps, and if needed, I can provide the information specific to them. Keep in mind also that the 4th Corps, AOC, designated these patetrns from 1864-65, so earlier use may or may not be proper. The orders authorizing these are dated 1864, and that may simply be a "fixing" of something that was already in use. However, since this corps was only brought into being on 28 September 1863, it's a narrow window of use prior to actual authorization.

There's more to this all, however, starting with McLellan's GO 102 which basically established this type of system. Eventually it morphed into two systems System 1 was the type associated with the AOP, and system 2 of this and other similar patterns.
respects,

[1stMaine]

Re: Brigade Flags

Comrade Jay,

I forgot to add what your brigade flag would look like, based on the above descriptions.
3rd Brigade, 2nd Division, 4th AC, AOC would have been a red square, 5 foot by 5 foot, Based upon my observations, the canton does not go all the way down to the centerline of the flag, which would be 30". so I would venture it is an even 24" per side. The swallow tail cut out makes a triangle going from the upper right corner to the center point of the flag to the lower left corner, observed on the fly.

The flag would have a blue canton, with a white Saint Andrew's cross, and 3 equal-sized 5 pointed stars, placed evenly between the bottom of the canton and the bottom of the flag, and on a line that runs vertically through the center of the canton.

I cannot tell from the illustrations whether the flags are sleeved or have a strip with grommets, but they definately do NOT have ties. They may very well be sleeved with a grommet hole at each end for securing the flag to the pike, as at least one illustration shows such an arrangement.

trusting this is of some small use, I remain, sir, respectfully,

[1stMaine]

Re: Brigade Flags

Comrade Jay,

Finding that I had a few minutes of free time this afternoon, I did a quick drawing of the flag you were enquiring about, in order to help you better visualize what it looked like from the description I gave in my earlier posts.
I trust this may be of some small use, and I remain, sir, respectfully,

[markj]

Re: Brigade Flags

Greetings,

If you have not done so, refer to this source:

Civil War Battle Flags of the Union Army and Order of Battle.
ISBN: 1577150074. New York: Knickerbocker Press, 1997; Hard Cover, folio, illus.

This is a reprint of an 1880's work that provides color illustrations of how the flags you mention "ideally" should have looked, along with their dimensions. You can pick this work up pretty cheap these days--it initially retailed for around $60 but you can now pick it up from places like "Half-Price Books" for well under $20.

You might also want to look at various flag websites. Here's a good one that might help you:

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/btlflags/btlflagsindex.htm

(New York Battleflags)

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[jaybird]

Re: Brigade Flags

Mark, Tim, Lee, Bill, &c:

Thanks so much.

I didn't know I was so far "off-track." That's what assuming facts instead of knowing them will do. I'm trying to put together as complete of a history of the 125th Ohio that I can. None of my research has yet turned up that information y'all have provided.

Secondary to the basic research, I thought I might adorn my vehicles with a brigade flag decal. So, I would have looked stupid, if I'd gotten it wrong!

Humbled by your knowledge, I remain,

Your obdient servant,
Pvt. Jay Reid
125th OVI

[jaybird]

Re: Brigade Flags

As a postscript to my previous reply, and as a reference for other interested, please see the following site for Ohio CW Flags:

http://www.ohiohistory.org/etcetera/...fftc/index.cfm



Jay Reid
125 OVI

[markj]

Re: Brigade Flags

Greetings Jay,

So are you doing this research with the Franklin event in mind? It so happens I looked at the "Summary Statements of Quarterly Returns of Ordnance and Ordnance Stores...." (NARA M1281) while I was at the National Archives recently and noted information relating to arms/accoutrements of Opdycke's Tigers. This information was drawn from individual company returns ending with 30 September 1864.

I have not yet transcribed all this information but can give you a quick summary:

1. All companies were armed with .58 Springfields. Numbers of rifles on-hand in each company were as follows:

A: 19
B: 25
C: 21
D: (not listed)
E: 18
F: 23
G: 28
H: 21
I: 31
K: 38

2. Amounts of accoutrements on-hand generally tracked pretty close to the above numbers. Strangely, some units reported excesses of some items while others reported significant shortfalls (e.g., Company E reported only 7 gun slings but Company K noted 45!). Some companies had a full complement of cartridge box belt (sling) plates while Company H reported only 9.

3. Even more interesting, the 30 September 1864 returns indicate the 125th OVVI still had a fairly sizeable complement of NCO sword belts and plates! To wit:

Company A: 3
Company C: 3
Company E: 2
Company H: 2
Company K: 5

Logic suggests that, given the 125th's involvement in the Atlanta Campaign, any NCO swords were not actually carried by troops but were, instead, either left behind or placed in the regimental baggage train.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[jaybird]

Re: Brigade Flags

Thanks,

That's great information.

Not for Franklin, but as part of my collection of information on the 125th OVI. Our unit carries a regimental flag, in addition to US colors, but no brigade flag. Had no data or pictures of same, until now.

Jay Reid
125th OVI

[markj]

Re: Brigade Flags

Okay, good deal. Once I transcribe everything I'll be happy to fire it out to you. I should have it done in a few days.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger