Desparately seeking buttons

[dpalyka]

After my trip down to crawfordsville to examine the original 11th IN uniform they have there (and wont remove from the case) my friend Brian and I have all the information we need to replicate this uniform... Except for a supplier for the buttons.
They are some pretty unique brass ones

Any clue who might have something close or where I could have some reasonably made?

[JimKindred]

Re: Desparately seeking buttons

Reasonably made is the trick. Normally for a special run you are looking at hundreds if not in the thousands of buttons to make the die work worth while. The smaller the run the more expensive they are. Many times with the small numbers involved in special projects like this you hit a dead end as most button manufacturing companies will not work with the small numbers this would probably entail. As an example, the last two new stamped buttons I added to my line I had to order a minimum of 20,000 of each size to get the price down to a reasonable level. Those are the kind of numbers you are looking at with specialty buttons.

Best bet is to look at modern commercial buttons currently available and see if you find a match or something similar. Some of the clothing makers on the forum may be able to help you in that regard.

[dpalyka]

Re: Desparately seeking buttons

Would you possibly be interested in adding this to your line?
It is a unique period button...

[JimKindred]

Re: Desparately seeking buttons

Damon.

I am afraid that I would not be interested in adding this button. Unique buttons are the type I try to avoid. The reason being is that once made, a small number meet an immediate need then the bulk would sit on the shelf until Gabriel blew his horn. Large numbers of unique items are not cost effective.

Sorry not to be able to help out on this.

[CJDaley]

Re: Desparately seeking buttons

Would you possibly be interested in adding this to your line?
It is a unique period button...

I've seen buttons like this in the past. They are normally on European 19th Century Military Uniforms and have a Paris backmark.

PS I checked out the rest of your photogallery and there are some nice shots of the uniform. It looks as thought they cut the cloth for the uniform against the selvedge. Is that the case or am I looking at the photos wrong?

[dpalyka]

Re: Desparately seeking buttons

Unfortunatly I was unable to get them to let me take the uniform out of the case to really examine/photograph it closely. They did however provide me with a written description of the backmark - "Register'd February 15th 1854" is all it says (according to them that is...)

Yes, it is constructed that way, why would they do that?

[markj]

Re: Desparately seeking buttons

Hi Damon,

I've seen this uniform too but does the Lew Wallace Study have a solid Civil War-era provenance for this item? I don't remember them ever stating so to me. The main reason I ask is because a "zouave" unit was apparently organized in Crawfordsville at some point after the war ended (possibly the 1880's), which also wore zouave-styled garb.

You may have already seen that photo allegedly showing the "Montgomery Zouaves" posed in a street engaged in bayonet exercise. However, judging from the facial hair styles (e.g., "handlebar moustaches") and clothing worn by a boy also shown in the photo, this image likely dates to the 1880's or later. Unfortunately, the same photograph appears in both Boone County IN and Montgomery County IN histories so there's confusion over precisely who these guys were.

As for identifying the button in question, you might want to try looking through W. K. Tice's "Uniform Buttons of the United States, 1776-1865.":

http://www.southernmilitaria.com/spotligh.htm

I'm slightly more confident about the provenance of the blue "swallowtail" coat that is also on display after having systematically gone through all of the 1850's editions of the Montgomery County "Review" and "Journal." What references I've found to the Montgomery Guards suggests they were uniformed in a pretty typical fashion for independent militia companies of the day (swallowtail coats and tall, peaked caps with plumes) until Wallace adopted zouave stylings in late 1859. They also seem to have picked up at least part of their uniforms and equipment from commercial suppliers like Horstmann Brothers of Philadelphia. There is also a reference in the Montgomery County "Review" to the "Guards" using "Scott's Tactics" before they latched on to Ellsworth's manual.

Even better, I found a description of the huge 4 July 1859 militia encampment in Lafayette. This was the largest event of its kind between 1848-1861 with Indiana state borders, with over 500 militia troops attending from all over the Midwest. Some of the units attending were the Cincinnati Rover Guards, the Cincinnati Guthrie Grays (later part of the 5th Ohio, as I recall), Wallace's Montgomery Guards, units from Indianapolis, the Lafayette (Indiana) Guards, and the Louisville Citizen Guards. Turns out the co-commanders for the event were Lew Wallace and...Simon Bolivar Buckner!

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[dpalyka]

Re: Desparately seeking buttons

The reason they dont have said provenance is because they lost it... :)
Luckilly, I have friends who went there to examine this uniform in the 70s, This is the first sgt wearing the uniform... of course it is not ID'd...
The jacket was really worn, I doubt it would have looked like that if it hadnt seen service...
Is this the pic of which you speak?

I never bought it for a second... :)

This one is Id'd to James shepard:

and another...


Now the uniform they have at crawfordsville (and pictured in the first image above) has hungarian knots on it... The others do not, however he is a 1st Sgt and they are privates...

[markj]

Re: Desparately seeking buttons

Hi Damon,

Yep, that "street drill" photo is the one I saw. Again, oddly, both the Boone (i.e., Lebanon) and Montgomery (i.e., Crawfordsville) county histories claim this picture for their own. Go figure. The young man (or "officer") on the right seems to be wearing a Pattern of 1872-style five button sack coat so, obviously, the photo can't date to any earlier than that.

Based on the militia "trends" I've noted in the Indiana papers, after the end of the Mexican War only a handful of independent militia companies remained in the state. Wallace, in fact, attempted to start a company in Indianapolis around 1853 and failed miserably. However, beginning around 1856, a modest number of companies organized around the state although there only perhaps around a dozen of any consequence most of which, perhaps a little surprisingly, were located in the northern, "Yankee" half of Indiana.

After the war, the Indiana state militia again mostly lapsed into inactivity until around 1875-1876 when interest began to bud again likely due in part to the upcoming Centennial observations. Not knowing any more than I do, the photo in question likely dates to this period or later.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[dpalyka]

Re: Desparately seeking buttons

That and the fact that the 11th never wore anything even remotely resembling this uniform...
Even the gaitors are wrong,... the 11th wore buff button gaitors or boots.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Desparately seeking buttons

I recomend talking to antique button collectors, searching Ebay for antique buttons, or turning your own on a lathe. A machine shop in your area could do this. Look for what is called a "job shop".