Austrian Lorenz Repop

[trippcor]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Doug,
First thanks for taking the time to post the information and to do the comparison. My unit, the Armory Guards, is considering a mass purchase of the LA repro but want to make sure we know what we are getting into. It looks like the front site could be moved to fit the original which is not a big deal. I guess the ultimate question is "Is the weapon worth the money?".

[58 lorenz]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Mr. Corbin: Here is a rather poor photo I took to show why my original bayonet will not fit the LA Lorenz (I was holding the bayonet up to the muzzle and trying to take a pic at the same time). Either the sight has to be moved, or the end of the bayonet must be removed-Not an option.




Doug Price

[militiaman1835]

Re: Loyalist Arms cone In Barrel 18435/40 musket

Back in the 1970's I took a Navy Arms Japanese made Charleville and bought an original conversion hammer, brass pan plate, and musket nipple from S & S Firearms and did a cone in barrel conversion for CW. Looking at the repro 1835 it would be easy to buy the flint version they sell and do or have done by someone a conversion yourself. Just food for thought...I may do one myself. Jim Hensley

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

ten years ago the Greg Eddington "Bridesburg Armory" Lorenz assembled from them was $1100+. I understand a grand total of one (1) was produced from that venture. It was cheaper to get an original in shootable condition, and most enthusiasts that had to have a Lorenz (like me) went that route.

By way of analogy...
A few years (10) ago, one could purchase a very nice WWI era Colt/Rem UMC/Springfield Model 1911 pistol with holster, belt, mag pouch, and extra mags for about $1000. Today, the same rig might cost $2000 to $3000 depending on the maker and vintage of pistola included. Colt now offers a reproduction of a 1918 Model 1911 pistol for $900 - $1200, depeding on the dealer... they couldn't have marketed the same item at the same price 5-10 years ago!

Invariably, the price of the collectable always catches up with whatever price is offered. This is why, when a collector pays above top-dollar for a good example, he says, "I didn't pay too much, I'm just ahead of my time". :cry_smile

The same can be said for repro $600 Enfields, $800 1816 Conversions, and (yes) $1000 Lorenzs (ack! How do you pluralize "Lorenz"!?)

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Assemblying mismatched rough parts is very time-consuming. I would suspect a gunsmith would have to pad his time to assemble all the parts at about 8 hours of labor just to fit them. Then if a barrel or stock has to be made you are looking at parts plus that labor. You'd easily hit the $1000 mark and probably climb a tad over it per gun.

Not dealing with the Lorenz, but this past weekend I began de-farbbing a new Armi Sport Enfield from Taylors. It is unlike any other Armi I have come across. The stock's comb is non-existent, not even the little rounded nub they usually have. The barrel markings are in different places as well. "Armi Sport" is now on the bottom of the barrel, hidden from view. On the surface this sounds like good news, but then where Armi Sport used to be in front of the sight, they have the Euroarms barrel stuff that says ".58 Caliber For Black Powder Only." They have new proof marks in the same place under the serial number, and the serial number has a slightly different look. The lock plate is Euroarms, meaning it has the period-correct mainspring stop ledge instead of the Armi Sport screw. Overall it appears like a good quality gun still, but they have obviously had a manufacturer change over there.

On a happier note, I got a break finally on remaking the Liege. The small parts can be reproduced here in brass locally and these parts can be fitted by me to work and then sent to India to be copied in steel. This has been an issue because we don't want to send a high-quality original set of parts to India to be never seen again. And, they tend to cast them "as is" so any rust pits are in the casting as well. But a newly fitted and polished brass part would theoretically be "perfect." My stock carving device is being built at this time and the barrels are ready to be produced. Once this project gets moving, the Lorenz (RIGHT) is next.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Wick:
The Rifle Shoppe parts are going to be quite rough, and ten years ago the Greg Eddington "Bridesburg Armory" Lorenz assembled from them was $1100+. I understand a grand total of one (1) was produced from that venture. It was cheaper to get an original in shootable condition, and most enthusiasts that had to have a Lorenz (like me) went that route.

This is why the initial enthusiasm for the Loyalist Arms version is what it is...the alternatives are not particularly encouraging.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Just curious...
The full set of parts for a Lorenz is $670 from The Rifle Shoppe.
( http://www.therifleshoppe.com/(698).htm )

Anyone want to ball-park what the cost of assembly and finishing might be?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

The problems with the Loyalist Arms repro stock won't be fixed by sanding. It is the dimension (length) of the wrist which throws off the placement of the cheek rest. This feature was a nice bit of human engineering on the original M-1854 Lorenz. The wrist portion of a gunstock can be extended easily enough by cutting back the comb, but not shortened again. Unfortunately, wood is easier removed than put back. The Loyalist Arms M-1854 Lorenz will require some "compromises" on the part of the end user, but not necessarily more than say that old warhorse the Euroarms P-53 Enfield, largely unchanged since the 1980s. The Lorenz details will just be harder to address, at least in the early production runs while LA bugs get ironed out.

I came to believe the reason for the coolness towards any repro Lorenz by Armi Sport or Euroarms was the fear of cannabalizing their existing Enfield sales, meaning potential Enfield buyers might be swayed by the Lorenz as an alternate rifle-musket choice, vs a smoothbore which is often an additional purchase for early war events. Just a possible theory. The price of the Loyalist Arms M-1854 is attractive, at least initially. The type corrections needed will push the price upwards for the purchaser, unless you can tolerate the details as they are. One potential upside is if there turns out to be a good sized market for the M-1854 Lorenz, the other repro gunmakers may respond with an "improved" product. Let's not hold our breath, though.

Another possibility is the bayonet lug was mis-placed to promote easier fitting of existing repro bayonets vs waiting for a new Lorenz bayonet to be produced. Loyalist Arms is famously slow about getting around to tooling up for these sorts of details. I would have been surprised if an original Lorenz bayonet would fit due to the larger .62 barrel.

[trippcor]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Doug,
The pictures that were posted do not seem to show that big a difference between the placement of the sight and the first band. If the front site were to be moved forward a bit do you think an original bayonet would fit? I did notice the cheek piece was not as well defined as the original. Do you think that the repro stock could be sanded down like we have to do with the repro enfields to be a better match?

[Johan Steele]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

An original Lorenz bayonet will not fit the repop Loyalist Arms; my beef is that if I do get a proprer rifled barrel I'll have to add a second bayonet... and an original at that. More $ that might be better used somewhere else. Best answer seems to be lining the barel to .54.

Then again last weekend I went sans bayonet and did just fine...