Shoulder Arms

[stx]

I've seen two different versions of shouldering arms. One where you hould the but of the rifle and lay it on your left shoulder and one where you grip the trigger guard. In manual's both are described. What dictates which way to do it?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Shoulder Arms

As far as I can tell the idiosynchracies of the particular unit dictate.

[Duff]

Re: Shoulder Arms

I may be wrong so please correct me, but I think the one where you grip the trigger guard was first used in 1862 when casey's manual came out. It was adopted by USV units first, and regulars and Confederates did not adopt it until later.

If I'm wrong just delete this post

[regularyank]

Re: Shoulder Arms

The one where you lean it on your shoulder is carry arms I believe. Regulars used it most often, more of an old army thing.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Shoulder Arms

It certainly is easier to hold these boat anchors we lug around by leaning on the left shoulder rather than wrapping the fingers around the trigger guard. Which brings up another point that I have never been particularly clear on:

When gripping the musket at shoulder arms around the trigger guard, where is the sling swivel supposed to be placed relative to your grip? Is it supposed to be pressed flat against the bottom of the gunstock and your hand over the top of it? Or pushed straight against the trigger guard and held there by the pressure of your grip? Neither method feels particularly comfortable for very long if a big fat repro sling with a big fat fixed leather keeper is attached.

This is one reason I don't use a sling on my musket. Another is because I usually carry a gigantic US 1816 repro. For example with the US 1816 the sling swivel is well in front of the huge trigger guard and it is a real joy to attempt to spread your fingers around all that in a "claw" grip. The sling swivel has to be pushed flat against the stock just to fit your hand around the trigger guard. Also the musket is not only enormous but nice and heavy, too...what must that have been like all day on the march? Arguably most repros are heavier than the originals they seek to copy, but the repro Pedersoli US 1816 is very close to the original in overall weight. It was just a big heavy musket that's hard to carry.

Any thoughts?

[Rob]

Re: Shoulder Arms

I've got a picture of a soldier at Shoulder Arms (right shoulder) hooking his index finger through the trigger guard. I've caught myself doing this when the officers kept us at the shoulder for what seemed like three hours.

Good discussion here...

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5763

The version you use should be the one prescribed by whichever manual you use.

[Rob]

Re: Shoulder Arms

Here is the photo, in case anyone is interested:

[1stMo Drummer]

Re: Shoulder Arms

Correct me if i'm wrong but I belive shoulder arms on the left shoulder is the older army tactics such as used in Scotts Tatics. I am not sure when ( I belive in the late 1850's) they changed the tatics and I belive thats when the change occured...I know that the Missouri State Guard used scots tatics so it may have been that whichever Tatics manuel the comander prefered or was fimiliar with is the one they used....

[Clsinclair]

Re: Shoulder Arms

The method of which you use Shoulder arms is dictated by which drill manual you are using.

Claude Sinclair

[Greg Renault]

Re: Shoulder Arms

The position of shoulder arms which has the piece on the left shoulder and the hand on the butt is used in the manual of arms for the musket. This position of shoulder arms has its origin in the close-order drill associated with linear warfare, and is the common position of shoulder arms for line infantry armed with smoothbore muskets in virtually all western armies in the 18th and early 19th centuries. All of the sources of which I am aware utilize this particular carry only for the musket; other long-arms (rifle, rifle-musket) are given a different position of shoulder arms. Lots more about this shoulder arms position in the research article: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ead.php?t=6840

The position of shoulder arms with the piece on the right shoulder and the hand gripping the trigger guard is used in the manual of arms for troops acting as light infantry (Scott, Hardee); though Scott assumes such troops may be armed with muskets, Hardee assumes light infantry will be armed with shorter rifles. (Scott also stipulates that NCOs in line units are to use the light infantry carry.)

In the ACW the rifle-musket emerged as the dominant infantry long-arm, but during the first year of the war the smoothbore musket converted to percussion was the most prevalent weapon. For some time thereafter, both smoothbores and the newer rifle muskets coexisted in both armies. Hence, some tactics manuals from the first half of the war feature both manuals of arms (Gilham, US Infantry Tactics). However, by mid-war the rifle musket is prevalent, the musket manual of arms disappears from the tactical manuals, and infantry is only using the light infantry carry (Casey, Revised Hardee).

This shift in the position of shoulder arms is part of the larger evolution of infantry tactics from close to open order style of fighting: even those ACW manuals that feature the manual of arms for the musket employ Hardee's light infantry tactics for their evolutions, not Scott's; the evolution continues postwar in the various editions of Upton's Tactics.

"What dictates which way to do it?" If your unit is armed with muskets (or portraying a unit that was so armed), use the musket manual of arms, and the musket carry. Once your unit was issued rifle-muskets, though, I believe that the more fashionable light infantry manual of arms would have been adopted. Certainly by mid-war the light infantry carry is the only correct position of shoulder arms for Federal infantry (Casey), and the dominant one for Confederate infantry (Revised Hardee).

[Dignann]

Re: Shoulder Arms

The "Correct" Shoulder Arms

Eric

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Shoulder Arms


What Greg said.
What Eric pointed out.

Plus, several manuals are available here, online, at no-cost:
http://home.att.net/~Cap1MD/Drill.htm

[acwillen]

Re: Shoulder Arms

The one where you lean it on your shoulder is carry arms I believe. Regulars used it most often, more of an old army thing.

Since it was brought up, it should also be noted that "carry arms" and "shoulder arms" are synonyms in the later drill, although the former term is a carryover from the older manuals and less commonly used. If your "shoulder arms" is on the right with fingers around the guard, so should your "carry arms" be.

Dal Bello covers this in IGP.

[jurgitemvaletem]

Re: Shoulder Arms

In the photo previously posted the soldiers carrying their weapons at shoulder arms appear to be early war green troops, at least from my point of view, being that they are wearing shoulder scales attatched to what appear to be New York State jackets. It could be the photo was taken during early training and they had not yet been properly trained.

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Shoulder Arms

As has been pointed out, the position of shoulder arms with the musket barrel-side-up on your left shoulder is from found in prewar manuals including Scott's. IMO Scott's is a mildly updated adaptation of Von Steuben's drill, with which Winfield Scott was more than abundantly familiar. The position of shoulder arms in drill manuals of the late 18th c. is universally like that. (I have a pet theory that it keeps the flintlock mechanism from getting tangled up in your belts and clothing, but that's supposition.) There was a position in all of these earlier manuals called "Advance Arms" which became "Shoulder Arms" in the later Hardee's/Casey's iterations. Previously advance arms was also known as the Sergeant's Carry, and was the expected position at which a sergeant would carry his musket and from which he would issue any commands.