Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Bugler Ranks

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Bugler Ranks

    Gents,
    Thank you for all your information, I know now that most buglers were privates. I seriously doubted the info given to me by my local bugler. I have no where near the ability to play as a "principal musician".
    I was not looking for instant rank, only to accurately portray a federal musician. Like I stated on the "other board" If I wanted to take the "farb" approach, I would have bought a bugle from FC Sutlery, already ordered the chevrons, and never asked. Again, thanks for all the helpful responses!

    PS The person that told me about the 1/4-1/2 etc ranking system is a local bugler, dressed as a "principal musician"?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Bugler Ranks

      Originally posted by FranklinGuardsNYSM View Post
      Two more, these guys belonging to the 1st U.S. Cavalry, photographed at Brandy Station in 1864. No chevrons, but note the unique trouser striping. Looks like two strips of yellow tape.

      Also of note is that the guys in this unit are wearing the mounted services jacket with the different style of cuff, viz. the tape rises in curved fashion above the cuff buttons, rather than coming to a peak at the center of the top sleeve.
      And both have the cavalry issue trumpets not bugles. Nice close ups!!!
      And look how the trumpeter on the second immage has secured his mouthpiece as well with a cord!
      If anybody has more of such clear close ups of buglers or trumpeters please share! I am a sponge concerning details!!
      Jan H.Berger
      Hornist

      German Mess
      http://germanmess.de/

      www.lederarsenal.com


      "Und setzet ihr nicht das Leben ein, nie wird euch das Leben gewonnen sein."( Friedrich Schiller)

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Bugler Ranks

        Originally posted by mrgrzeskowiak View Post
        I have no where near the ability to play as a "principal musician".
        The Federal laws authorizing volunteer infantry regiments--which can be read in the ORs--allowed each regiment to have TWO principal musicians. One was to serve as the Principal Musician (a role in the battalion's non-commissioned staff) and the other was to be the Bugler. I suspect that, in practice, the typical infantry battalion's Bugler was not a principal musician.

        Originally posted by mrgrzeskowiak View Post
        PS The person that told me about the 1/4-1/2 etc ranking system is a local bugler, dressed as a "principal musician"?
        I believe I know which person gave you this information. Let's just say, "find the documentation rather than take the word of someone who's 'been doing it that way for years'."

        As a final thought regarding bugling at western New York Civil War events: hardly anyone--including the commanding officers--knows anything about how to use a bugler, or what the calls mean. The local "battalion commanders" I saw while spectating at a mainstream reenactment this past weekend preferred shouting commands to their men, despite the fact that the Federal battalion appeared to have two buglers each dressed as a principal musician. Two buglers, and not really using either one of 'em. And, if the commanders did know how to use the buglers, virtually none of the officer and non-comm impressionists in the region, let alone the "privates", knows what the bugle calls mean.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Bugler Ranks

          Originally posted by toptimlrd View Post
          Looking at the solo image, it looks like he has an infantry bugle inside his chevrons, I thought that was well post war.
          Did I miss someone respond to this? I am as well confused. I thought this was post war. But, if you look closely it looks like the bugle was a modification rather an already included in the stripes. If anyone knows please let me know.
          Courtney Abel
          95th PVI, Gosline's Zouaves

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Bugler Ranks

            Originally posted by FranklinGuardsNYSM View Post
            Here's two extremes of the spectrum: Image #1, Grant's Cavalry Escort, March, 1865.

            Image #2, from a group of NCO's of the 13th NY Cavalry, July, 1865. Hubba-WHA?!
            Image #1
            I've got written down as the 5th NY Cavalry. If they were Grant's escort in March 1865 so be it. The white gloved officer's and escort company with sabers drawn has been cropped out of your picture....they would be to the bugler's left (picture right).

            Here's a 3Mb GIF:
            ftp://ftp.rjsamp.com/ACW_Bugler/Bugl...0Assembled.gif

            The buglers all have Copper Clairons (big belled bugles) in the key of C. The bugler on the far left is the Chief Bugler, the rest of the buglers are in Height order (including the two kids who are impishly smiling for the camera!).

            They are lined up as if it's Parade for Guard Mount...normally you'd have two company musician's on the right of the guard company....this may be more of a sign that this is a Squadron.

            Grant's Escort?

            Cool!

            Image #2.....well if someone had told me that ONE Chief Bugler's Chevron's during the ACW would be 3 up 3 down and a BUGLE in the middle instead of a star.....that would have bowled me over..... and it did!

            Are we sure this is 13th NY Cavalry? ACW?

            Double COOL!

            I'll comment on DOUBLE STRIPED trowsers shortly (need to unload groceries).
            Last edited by RJSamp; 07-28-2007, 03:26 PM. Reason: comment on Image #2
            RJ Samp
            (Mr. Robert James Samp, Junior)
            Bugle, Bugle, Bugle

            Comment


            • #21
              Double Yellow Trouser Stripes

              Originally posted by FranklinGuardsNYSM View Post
              Two more, these guys belonging to the 1st U.S. Cavalry, photographed at Brandy Station in 1864. No chevrons, but note the unique trouser striping. Looks like two strips of yellow tape.
              WOW! This is quite a find!

              1. Double Yellow Trouser Stripes (DYTS) appear in the US Army Regulations of 1883 for all musician's.....along with the trumpeter designation, the F/C Trumpet (model 1879, used much earlier than that say since 1872), the trumpet above the rockers for a trumpeter, the trumpet in the rockers for a Chief Bugler. All of this considered to be Indian Wars Period (IWP). So throw in that 13th NYSV Cavalry Chief Bugler into this discussion as well.

              2. June 1876 Little BigHorn River battle, Company A Bugler Henry L Dose (not to be confused with Chief Bugler Henry Voss) is assigned to Custer's staff as orderly (duty bugler) for the day. His body is discovered half way between Last Stand Hill and Reno's woods position down in the Valley.....up on the ridge above Medicine Tail Coulee on the way to Ford B. The identification of the headless Dose is of course problematical (as was identifying most of the dead).....but members of his company A id'd him in part based on the Trumpeter's Stripes on the slain trooper (he was shirt/jacket less as well). 7 years before the Reg!

              3. 1875 their's a picture of 4 3rd Cavalry troopers at Fort Robinsion....one on the right had his hand resting on his DYST!!! 8 years before the Reg.

              ftp://ftp.rjsamp.com/ACW_Bugler/Bugl...%20stripes.gif

              4. Now we have 1st US Cavalry Buglers with Double Yellow Stripes in 1864 at Brandy Station.....and a 13th NYSV Cavalry Chief Bugler wearing an IWP Chief Buglers Chevron (see the Regs of 1873 (and Emory L Upton "Cavalry Tactics Manual") !!!)

              We'll I'll be!

              Hey and Kevin, a Cavalry Musician wearing a 'rare' bird cage!

              Anyone else know anything about these heretofore after war uniforms?

              Cool!
              and
              THANKS!
              RJ Samp
              (Mr. Robert James Samp, Junior)
              Bugle, Bugle, Bugle

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Bugler Ranks

                Originally posted by hendrickms24 View Post
                Check out the link below which show you the Table of Pay from the 1861 U.S. Army Regulations. I hope this answer your questions.


                http://www.bradyssharpshooters.org/b...ble_of_Pay.htm
                Does anyone know where the Table of Pay 's are in ELECTRONIC Format for later on in the war? With cavalry undergoing three restructure's, the disbandment of regimental music's (and I don't see their pay structure in this document???), and the pay increase to $14 for a Private I'd love to see this without having to dig through manual after manual!? Thanks!!!
                RJ Samp
                (Mr. Robert James Samp, Junior)
                Bugle, Bugle, Bugle

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Bugler Ranks

                  Originally posted by Kevin O'Beirne View Post
                  The Federal laws authorizing volunteer infantry regiments--which can be read in the ORs--allowed each regiment to have TWO principal musicians. One was to serve as the Principal Musician (a role in the battalion's non-commissioned staff) and the other was to be the Bugler. I suspect that, in practice, the typical infantry battalion's Bugler was not a principal musician.
                  According to HARDEE's, SCOTT's, CASEY'S, US I&RT and the smaller manual's (Baxter's, Chandler's, Gilham's) there were authorized up to TWO Principal Musician's....and the second PM was the Band Leader. I don't see anything about the 2nd PM 'was to be the Bugler'. Can you point me in the right direction where to find this?

                  Possibly GO 15?

                  "Plan of organization of the volunteer forces called into the service of the United States by the President."
                  http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilcivilw/genor15.htm
                  "Thirty-nine regiments of volunteer infantry will be raised. Each regiment will consist of ten companies, and each company will be organized as follows: Minimum - 1 captain, 1 first lieutenant, 1 second lieutenant, 1 first sergeant, 4 sergeants, 8 corporals, 2 musicians, 1 wagoner, 64 privates; aggregate 83. Maximum - 1 captain, 1 first lieutenant, 1 second lieutenant, 1 first sergeant, 4 sergeants, 8 corporals, 2 musicians, 1 wagoner, 82 privates; aggregate 101.

                  The commissioned officers of the company will be appointed by the Governor of the State furnishing it, and the non-commissioned officers, until the compnay shall be embodidied in a regiment, will be appointed by the captain; afterward by the colonel, on recommendation of the captain.

                  Each regiment will be organized as follows: Minimum - 830 company officers and enlisted men, 1 colonel, 1 lieutenant-colonel, 1 major, 1 adjudant (a lieutenant), 1 regimental quartermaster (a lieutentant), 1 assistant surgeant, 1 sergeant-major, 1 regimental quartermaster-sergeant, 1 regimental commissary-sergeant, 1 hospital steward, 2 principal musicians, 24 musicians for band; aggregate, 866.
                  Maximum - 1010 company officers and enlisted men, 1 colonel, 1 lieutenant-colonel, 1 major, 1 adjudant (a lieutenant), 1 regimental quartermaster (a lieutentant), 1 assistant surgeant, 1 sergeant-major, 1 regimental quartermaster-sergeant, 1 regimental commissary-sergeant, 1 hospital steward, 2 principal musicians, 24 musicians for band; aggregate, 1046."


                  If you look into the Regimental History's of enough unit's...it becomes very clear that when these 1,000 rifle regiment's were mustered in they didn't have a Drum Major (Band Leader) and Two Principal Musician's.

                  SCOTT's
                  47. The drummers and fifers, or bugles, (the field music) will be drawn up in two ranks, the drummers in the rear, and posted twelve paces in the rear of the file closers, the left opposite to the centre of the left centre company. The senior principal musician will be two paces in front of the field music, and the other two paces in the rear.

                  48. The regimental band, if there be one, will be drawn up in two or three ranks, according to its numbers, and posted three paces in rear of the
                  field music, having one of the principal musicians at its head.

                  HARDEE's
                  Posts of Field Music, and Band.

                  34. The buglers will be drawn up in four ranks, and posted twelve paces in rear of the file closers, the left opposite the center of the left center company. The senior principal musician will be two paces in front of the field music, and the other two paces in the rear.

                  35. The regimental hand, if there be one, will be drawn up in two or four ranks, according to its numbers, and posted five paces in rear of the field music, having one of the principal musicians at its head.

                  The rest of the manual's are basically the same: TWO Principal Musician's....1 commands the Field Music's, 1 commands the Band (if present).


                  The 1st Mass Infantry mustered in with 11 buglers....in addition to a band and a field music's. The 11th bugler Alonzo Kingsbury was the Chief Bugler, and was not a Principal Musician. He was killed in April 1862 (about the 14th) during the siege of Yorktown (bugler's and musician's Did Not Play during the siege: see "Army Letters" Oliver Norton). Refer: "The Hero of Medfield" 1862 and the "Diary of Charles Perkins" both available at Carlisle Military Barracks.
                  The 83rd PA mustered in with 12 buglers.....not much later knocked down to 2 (one of which was Oliver Norton). One was a chief bugler, none were PM's. When Norton became a mounted Brigade Bugler, he complained to his sister that he still was being paid as a Private (he mustered in as a rifleman, only later becoming a bugler) instead of as a chief bugler ($17 / month).
                  We know that Bugler Moses Ross, 124th NYSV Orange Blossoms, was later promoted to PM, as well as being Chief Bugler.

                  A bugler was not on 'staff' per se, but commander's like Butterfield, Vincent, 99%+ of Cavalry Commanders, and the Colonel of the 1st MASS Infantry gave orders to their senior/chief bugler to "stay by my side at all times"....so it might seem as if they were 'on staff'.

                  I don't show any leg infantry regimental bugler's ever being mounted.

                  Bottom Line:
                  two Principal Musician's authorized
                  one was the Field Music's leader
                  one (IFF they had a band) to be the Band Leader (Drum Major)
                  When GO 191 April 1862 sends the bands packing.....and when Casey's manual start's coming into use (with it's infamous line that the drummer's are not to be used at all for the manuever calls if a bugler is present)...and when bugler's start being used more and more (McClellan runs Division drill by the bugle in October 1861!).... then a few Infantry Chief Bugler's become Principal Musician's.....($21/month pay vs 17).

                  Good stuff
                  RJ Samp
                  (Mr. Robert James Samp, Junior)
                  Bugle, Bugle, Bugle

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Bugler Ranks

                    Originally posted by RJSamp View Post
                    I don't see anything about the 2nd PM 'was to be the Bugler'. Can you point me in the right direction where to find this?
                    RJ,

                    Per the sources cited in the CRRC2 chapter "Who Did What?" and the article "Leadership in Reenacting Part 1" (posted on this forum), see the ORs, Series 3, Vol. 1, pg. 961.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Bugler Ranks

                      Originally posted by Kevin O'Beirne View Post
                      RJ,

                      Per the sources cited in the CRRC2 chapter "Who Did What?" and the article "Leadership in Reenacting Part 1" (posted on this forum), see the ORs, Series 3, Vol. 1, pg. 961.
                      Kevin, why are you citing the 1899 published series of the OR's instead of the 1861 Reg's themselves? I'm unable to find this stuff in the Reg. of 1861...or the 1863 Amendments. Note that there is a footnote on your specific 1899 published citation, that states the regimental staffing 'paragraph' was amended on April 16, 1861.

                      Hmmm..... the Regs don't appear to have been placed into effect by any Volunteer regiment...(or the President would have been a very busy man indeed approving the appointment of so many QM, Commissary, and Surgeons!!! see your OR cite, that is directed towards Regular Army, not Volunteer Army appointments) .
                      Look at the Manuals (Casey's, Hardee's, Scott's, US I & RT), the actual Rosters, the Pay Tables for Infantry, the fact that several Infantry units had no buglers ever....

                      There is no provision for a Drum Major and TWO Principal Musicians. (Kautz' reference to this concerns the New Army...post ACW).

                      Here's Illinois' posting of that amendment (April 16, 1861), note it has nothing about one of the PM's being a chief bugler (preferred).

                      "GENERAL ORDERS NO. 2.
                      GENERAL HEADQUARTERS,

                      OFFICE OF THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF,

                      SPRINGFIELD, ILL., April 16, 1861.

                      The Secretary of War, under and by direction of the President of the United States, having called upon the Executive of this State for the immediate organization of six regiments of volunteer militia to aid in the enforcement of the laws of the United States, and to protect the public property; therefore, I, Richard Yates, Governor of the State of Illinois, and Commander-in-Chief of the militia thereof, do call upon the commandants of divisions, brigades, regiments and independent companies to aid in raising and organizing the same immediately, and if there be no such officers, then the sheriff of each county.

                      By the instruction of the War Department, each company will consist of one captain, one first lieutenant. one second lieutenant, four sergeants, four corporals, two musicians, and eighty men.

                      Each regiment will be composed of one colonel, one lieutenant-colonel, one major, one adjutant (a lieutenant of one of the companies, but not in addition), one sergeant-major, one quartermaster-sergeant, two principal musicians, and ten companies.

                      Each company will elect its own officers, and when the several companies shall meet at the place of rendezvous, they will be formed into regiments, and will elect their own regimental officers. As fast as the companies are formed the commanding officer will make a return to the office of the Adjutant General, stating the names of the officers and number of men in each company. No person, under the rank of a commissioned officer, will be received who is apparently over the age of forty-five, or under the age of eighteen years.

                      Springfield is appointed the place of rendezvous, to which place each company or regiment will repair, at the earliest practicable period-where tents, and such other conveniences as can be procured, will be furnished.

                      Companies will be received in the order in which their services are offered.

                      (Signed.) RICHARD YATES, Commander-in-Chief

                      THOMAS S. MATHER, Adjutant General Illinois Militia. "

                      Bottom Line:
                      No Drum Major/Band Leader AND two Principal Musicians in an Infantry Regiment. In Cavalry they went through several ReOrgs, and one PM ended up with a mounted band and the other was the Chief Bugler.

                      And still can't find any Regimental foot Infantry bugler riding along with the Colonel as stated in your Article.
                      Last edited by RJSamp; 08-05-2007, 01:56 AM. Reason: Attempt to reconcile OR vs Reg citation.
                      RJ Samp
                      (Mr. Robert James Samp, Junior)
                      Bugle, Bugle, Bugle

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Double Yellow Trouser Stripes

                        Originally posted by RJSamp View Post
                        WOW! This is quite a find!
                        Anyone else know anything about these heretofore after war uniforms?
                        Regarding seemingly anachronistic uniform details my view, unless someone knows better, is that post-war changes to the Army uniform regs were formulated, at least in part, as a means of addressing already widespread de facto practices in the field. In short, it's entirely possible that the Army, not surprisingly, was merely reacting to a fait accompli in lieu of being truly creative.

                        Regards,

                        Mark Jaeger
                        Regards,

                        Mark Jaeger

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Bugler Ranks

                          RJ,

                          I cited the ORs because it's a record of what HAPPENED, instead of the Regs which is what was SUPPOSED to happen, but you probably knew that.

                          I readily admit that my own research on the matter of musicians and others who toodled horns in the Civil War is hardly comprehensive. I'll admit that others' research could prove some of my own conclusions to be incorrect. I look forward to reading others' research on the topic when it's published somewhere, and will hopefully be among the first to stand up and applaud such a publication.

                          If one already exists, then I certainly apologize to the reenactor community at large for my failure to find, read, and understand it.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X