english saddles

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

Mr. Knopp,

Thanks for your reply! I've always liked the lines and in particular(for some reason) the long square skirts of the wagon drivers saddles. I already have a beautiful reproduction of an early to mid 19th century English style saddle made by Mr. Lilie but if I ever purchase another saddle I may well go back to Stuart for a wagon drivers saddle! Thanks again, I always enjoy seeing your informative and knowledgeable replies.

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: english saddles

I like that saddle with the USMC markings on it.

Yeah, well we have to take the good with the bad... or in this case the period with the non-period! I didn't feel like cutting and pasting every period picture, so it was easier to just link over to horsetopia... Most of us in here should know a Whitman isn't Civil War, so...
TEH

[Lance Stifle]

Re: english saddles

Hello Old South
the saddle you've got is an old style English Jockey saddle, theyre still made and commonly used for morning track work over here in the land of Oz.

I'm unsure of the dating on the one you've shown though.

The stirrup leather should be outside of the slot and on top of the flap (skirt)to enable a free swinging action; the slot is meant to be for a surcingle to go up around the seat and disappear under the flap.


Cheers
Lancelot Stifle.

what do you all think of this saddle? It looks like the stirrup is forward of the hip. It has a skirt cut I have not seen before.

[Lance Stifle]

Re: english saddles

If any of you can get a copy of the book "Horses and Saddlery" MAJ G. Tylden, 1965; chapter four "Riding Saddles of the Regular British Army until 1890" gives a good description of the saddle type you're discussing.

Let me know if you're interested in any extracted passages.

Cheers
Lance Stifle.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

How's this for an English saddle. Painted in 1835 by William Sidney Mount, it shows two farmers on Long Island trying to horse deal. Think I'll have to go check out this American Stories: Paintings of Everyday Life, 1765-1915 exhibition at the Met this weekend.

Doesn't get any clearer or straight forward than that. As I'm always reminded...if it isn't broke...

http://www.metmuseum.org/special/ame...px?oid=0&sid=3

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

How's this for an English saddle. Painted in 1835 by William Sidney Mount, it shows two farmers on Long Island trying to horse deal. Think I'll have to go check out this American Stories: Paintings of Everyday Life, 1765-1915 exhibition at the Met this weekend.

Doesn't get any clearer or straight forward than that. As I'm always reminded...if it isn't broke...

Except it was "broke." The forward seat hadn't been developed yet, and jumping/racing starting improving quickly when it was.

The outside of the saddle looks about the same, but have you tried to sit one of those things?

When I learned to ride, it was in modern English saddles, the modern English way. Bad choice. I still have trouble adjusting to a period seat, even more so now that I'm out of practice for both styles, since you tend to revert to what you first learned.

I've ridden briefly and carefully in two different original English saddles (19th or possibly very early 20th century, similar to the one in the painting) and very little of modern English riding applied, since they weren't balanced for forward seat. It was almost impossible to sit with a forward seat or do any of the normal hunter-jumper things the modern way.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

I hear what you're saying, but must slightly disagree. I think you're confusing the stretch between "classic English" and "modern English" with the much larger differences between "western" and "classic/modern English".

I was specifically referring to the basic concept, pattern and design of the saddle and tree. Even look at his headstall and particularly that bit in the William Sidney Mount painting...it has the cheek pieces so many still use today on an English snaffle.

Dressage saddles are the closest modern equivalent to "period" saddles in my opinion with the deeper seat and straighter leg. In fact, dressage is the basis for classic military equitation throughout the early 19th and into the 20th century. Polo saddles are much "flatter", shallow, and with little to no knee roll and ride like you think of as "classical". That's been my experience anyway while playing in Argentina.

I know riding styles differ now, but honestly...not as much as you think they have to. I foxhunt regularly and ride a somewhat "hybrid" between a modern and classic English seat...as one, when going over obstacles, should merely "give" at the waist with the hands low and quiet. Kind of like this photo:

With a more forward skirt in today's saddles, this really accomplishes all that Caprilli set out to achieve. I, personally think today, many riders OVER-exaggerate the "forward" seat and stand up on those horses necks when going over an obstacle...entirely off-balance in the opposite direction. I guess, though...its better to be forward, than to get "left"!!

In one of the photos in the link you provided, his leg is actually too far back IMO and he should have a more balanced seat. In fact, that photo shows where a leg position would more likely be for jumping an obstacle at speed...like jump jockeys or jumping uphill.


This would be either a large jump downhill after this obstacle or TOO far behind ala "classical":

Again, it should be more centered, like this:


I've also ridden in many CW saddles over the years, some seats more shallow than others, but again...the leg position and posture can still be straight and slightly forward. Would you consider Custer in this photograph to be "forward"?? He's clearly riding a mid-19th century military saddle! I see him as merely centered and slightly forward actually and if he were to jump an obstacle...simply would have to give at the waist to get off that horses back. Kilpatrick just has BAD posture!:


Here's my modern Berney Bros. hunt saddle. Note the deeper seat with slightly swept forward skirts. This can still be ridden comfortably with a straight posture and neither too long or too short a stirrup length. Does "deep seat" equal "classic" style in your opinion???


I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've ridden 19th century saddles, military, western, modern polo, and hunt saddles and though each are different...the basic design for English saddles (18th, 19th, 20th century civilian, dressage, modern hunt, racing, polo, etc.) leave only adjustment in my opinion. The idea and basic design are the same.

Military saddles and equitation are deeply derived in dressage, which is THE best training and style you can learn for both man and horse to take on riding cross country, at speed, and in the hunt field. This, of course...naturally extends on up through the military's influence over modern equitation starting in the early 20th century through today, but is based on "classic" equitation in the 18th and 19th century.

I think the deep-seated "plowdriving" that's kind of western that I see so many reenactors use to balance an otherwise poor seat is what you're confusing with a "classic" seat. Can you imagine any of those guys going over anything???!!!

Long way to say that I think we may be discussing two separate issues.

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: english saddles

Okay, I'll be the first to admit that when I see these saddles, the first thing that pops into my head is "how in the world are you going to be able to stop a cow in that thing?". But I guess that's the difference in my western mentality and those of you back east who obviously know way more about horses and riding than I do. So I'm going to attempt to keep this simple so the unlearned like myself can hopefully gain some knowledge...

Using only the picture of the modern English saddle that Chris just posted for reference. What exactly about this saddle would make it completely wrong to use in a ACW period living history scenario? To my untrained eye, it looks very close to some of the period images already posted in this thread. I know nothing about a forward seat, backward seat or no seat at all.

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

This would be either a large jump downhill after this obstacle or TOO far behind ala "classical":

Again, it should be more centered, like this:

Not sure I understand what you're saying. When you say "should," yes, we now know that's what one should do to achieve the best performance and least injury. But our mindset has changed. Caprilli, among others, changed it, and eventually saddles changed along with it. That's my point.

If one looks at period or late 19th century paintings or drawings of horsemen jumping, one typically sees the vertical or backward lean of the torso, with the feet ahead of the hips. Just a few quick examples, here, here. It's in virtually every image from the period. To them, it seemed normal and a pretty-enough jump that you'd want to hang a picture of someone doing it on your wall.

But times have changed. You can do that in a center-balanced saddle; you can do it easily in a modern hunter-jumper saddle. In a saddle-seat saddle, plantation saddle, or other saddle not balanced for centered or forward-seat riding, not so easy.

I've also ridden in many CW saddles over the years, some seats more shallow than others, but again...the leg position and posture can still be straight and slightly forward. Would you consider Custer in this photograph to be "forward"?? He's clearly riding a mid-19th century military saddle!... Kilpatrick just has BAD posture!:

I think you're taking what I said the reverse way around. I totally agree that center-balanced saddles existed; centered riding (dressage) existed. What didn't exist was forward seat, which is what modern hunter-jumper saddles are designed for.

Military saddles and equitation are deeply derived in dressage, which is THE best training and style you can learn for both man and horse to take on riding cross country, at speed, and in the hunt field.

Compare modern images of hunting and jockeys with period ones, and I think you'll see that things have changed. For example, the hunting links above, or this and this.

I'd propose that the change is due to the introduction of forward-seat riding in the early 20th century. A change in the balance of saddles followed suit, so modern hunter-jumper English saddles are balanced to encourage forward seat.

Are you saying that nothing's changed in hunting riding styles in the last 150 years, or that it's due to another cause?

What exactly about this saddle would make it completely wrong to use in a ACW period living history scenario? To my untrained eye, it looks very close to some of the period images already posted in this thread. I know nothing about a forward seat, backward seat or no seat at all.

My answer would be the same kind of thing that makes that saddle different from this modern saddle-seat saddle. One could tell mainly tell by sitting in it.

When a person sits in a modern hunt-seat saddle, the balance of the tree naturally encourages a forward seat. It's why people don't ride hunt-seat saddles in the saddle-seat showring today.

A center-balanced saddle, like a period McClellan or modern western saddle or dressage saddle, makes a variety of riding styles comfortable.

A non-forward-seat English saddle, like what this person is riding, or older plantation saddle or older generic English saddle, naturally discourage forward seat, and encourage a seat more like what one often sees in period images, with the legs forward of hips. But that's just my opinion.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Outrider]

Re: english saddles

I think Both Chris and Hank make excellent points. I tend to agree with Hank about that whole foward riding thing being "modern" but mostly I agree with Larry that I have never been able to see an english saddle from any period or listen to all that talk of saddles and seat positions that english riders tend to do so much with out always thinking (at least to myself) "yeah but can you rope a cow on that thing?" " Or drag logs out of the woods with that saddle?" But then the good news for guys like us Larry is there were surely plenty of fellas in the period who felt the same way about it. Military applications aside, I believe therein lies the difference between a working rider and a recreational rider wether it be in the 1860's or now. Both are valid yet totally different mindsets and approaches to riding/horses.

I really dont have anything to add other than that but a good discussion for me nonetheless . I always enjoy any discussions about period horsemanship especially if it has relevance outside of the cavalry ranks as I believe that should be just as important for someone portraying a cav trooper as knowing all about the saddles, weapons ,etc. they may have been issued AFTER jineing up ... IMHO.
Carry On!

[Longrope]

Re: english saddles

I must say that I really like this "rope a cow" talk. Shows the proper spirit. But I wish to drag the thread back to the Custer photo, because isn't that Pleasonton with him, rather than Kilpatrick?

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

I think Both Chris and Hank make excellent points. I tend to agree with Hank about that whole foward riding thing being "modern" but mostly I agree with Larry that I have never been able to see an english saddle from any period or listen to all that talk of saddles and seat positions that english riders tend to do so much with out always thinking (at least to myself) "yeah but can you rope a cow on that thing?" " Or drag logs out of the woods with that saddle?"

I remember when I first went trail riding (modern) with a new group of people. They told me that you couldn't trail ride on an English saddle. I didn't get it. Needless to say, I did just fine since I always trail-rode in an English saddle, and in fact found one advantage, that I could duck lower under branches without a horn poking me in the stomach. They were genuinely surprised that I could keep up on the hills and rough terrain.

Obviously one needs a horn for roping, or a breastcollar and a way to hitch something to drag logs. But even beyond that, apparently there really is a strong prejudice against English saddles as being saddles for sissies or for the show-ring only.

I wonder if that was true in the 1860s also, or if it was something that came about after the big focus on the western cowboy era in the late 19th and 20th century?

Edited to add: I too think this whole thread has been (and still is) a good conversation. I was looking at some period horsemanship manuals after my last post, and found it interesting how even then, people were arguing over what was best, though I couldn't find any advice other than to keep your body perpendicular with the ground upon landing after a jump. This is an interesting article on military equitation, and the author's personal gripes about it, in 1835.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

Mr. Trent,

This is not anchored in 19th century documentation so take it with a grain of salt BUT it seems one's feelings on an English style saddle would differ depending on their geographic location as well as their emphasis on equine uses.

The "Spanish" saddle became an instant hit with early explorers, trappers and trading parties coming back from the Southwest and West riding them. Saddlers in St. Louis began producing their own versions of the saddles and as I'm sure you are aware, hybrid "Spanish" type saddles as well. It seems to me the reason the basic design was so popular was due mainly to it's rugged build and the fact that folks going West needed a solid platform to work from (as you've noted, the horn has uses other than roping). The hybrid saddles have the overall look of a "Spanish" rig but still carry over the problematic underpadding that was prone to falling apart under heavy use on the trail and some still used the weaker trees (from what I understand) built along the same lines as the English tree. Eventually the rawhide covered trees and working horns took hold and became entrenched in the portions of the Anglo cultures that used them. Folks back East that were riding for pleasure or just for transportation would have continued riding englsih style saddles while folks in the Southwest and West, who were working off their horses backs would have prefered a solid built rawhide covered tree.

It would be interesting to find some quotes from the early to mid 19th century regarding this shift in saddle patterns and the possible prejudices against them. Of course there are prejudices against different rigs of Western styled saddles and which one is more manly to use over the other, at least among vaqueros, but most of what I've seen there tends to be later 19th century and is out of the scope of this argument altogether!

[Outrider]

Re: english saddles

I believe Scott just hit the nail on the head . The only thing I might add was that after the war with Mexico those Spanish saddles/training methods /riding styles found their way east and south and found a home here too at least among men making a living on horseback.
I agree with you to Hank in that I have , among too many others, an english rig I enjoy riding in once in a while and have done many a trail ride with it and even on some of the steep trails we have around here and have never had any problems at all" sticking the seat" or anything. I particularly like it in Summer when its hot but I agree with Scott about the possible source for the prejiduces on both sides of the disciplines. It would seem to me , as someone who has been in and around both worlds and those inhabiting them, that, as I see it, in the Western riding world , English types are often seen as tending toward being elitist dandies and "horse snobs" while on the other hand, In the English riding world, western riders are often thought of as being sloppy, lazy and undisciplined riders. Its funny to me. There are elements of truth in both viewpoints but at the same time just another generalization as are all prejiduces.
I also tend to think it may have much to do with the different types of horse required for the different jobs at hand .For example even now an eastern fox hunter has as little use for a short stocky cow horse as a rancher , working cattle for a living, has for a 17hd European warmblood. Kind of like a Ford man looks down on a Chevy man and vice versa. But that just my opinion. It really would be interesting to find the same thing occuring in the mid 19th century. I certainly suspect there was plenty of it.

To think too that this is just as it relates to America now and possibly then and not to mention all the wrangling over what tack , training methods etc were better among the Spanish and other European "schools" even before there were colonies here.
Anyway, apologies fellas for bringing even more conjecture and modern references into the discussion :o

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

Saddlers in St. Louis began producing their own versions of the saddles and as I'm sure you are aware, hybrid "Spanish" type saddles as well. It seems to me the reason the basic design was so popular was due mainly to it's rugged build and the fact that folks going West needed a solid platform to work from (as you've noted, the horn has uses other than roping).

Folks back East that were riding for pleasure or just for transportation would have continued riding englsih style saddles while folks in the Southwest and West, who were working off their horses backs would have prefered a solid built rawhide covered tree.

Other than roping cattle (which is a big thing of course), what were westerners using their saddles for that easterners weren't? Or was there a reason that westerners did some tasks mounted, that easterners did on foot?

For example, I'm not sure what I said that horns were useful for, other than roping, unless you mean skidding logs. But the logging industry was thriving in the east with its own equipment since the colonial days, and I'm not sure a horn would be an improvement for skidding logs all day, compared to a harness meant for the job.

still carry over the problematic underpadding that was prone to falling apart under heavy use on the trail and some still used the weaker trees (from what I understand) built along the same lines as the English tree

That brings up another good point concerning period English saddles. In the period, it seems that English saddles were generally ridden without extra blankets underneath, while today they're almost always ridden with a blanket or extra pad. As just one example, note that the modern image of the English saddle in this thread above shows a blanket under it, while the period painting of the saddled horse for sale shows none. It wasn't 100% of course--I'm sure one could find some period images of English saddles with blankets--but definitely a trend that's changed today.

It never made sense to me, since a blanket protects the underside of the saddle from sweat and salt and can be changed when it wears out, rather than having the saddle repaired, so I can see why the switch to the modern/western way of doing it occurred. I wonder what the logic was in the period? Just habit? Was the underside of a saddle really less expensive to repair than a new blanket?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com