Artillery Safety questions

[DougCooper]

Smart red legs folks, some questions (prompted by observing a local unit serving two original Napoleons out here in Idaho):

1. Does it violate safety regulations to have civilians come out of a crowd to fire a cannon (pull the lanyard)?

2. What is the proper way to pass the round to the #2 man in loading - outside the wheel or over the hub inside the wheel?

3. What is the generally accepted minimum interval for firing on an original tube?

4. At what interval should a tube be x-rayed/examined for cracks, etc.?

Thanks gang

[dclarry]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

2. What is the proper way to pass the round to the #2 man in loading - outside the wheel or over the hub inside the wheel?

I am not all that smart an artilleryman, and I have not earned my red stripe yet, so I won't try and answer a safety question. But, I'll try and answer Question 2, or least start the discussion.

After worming out any debris from the last shot, the #2 man will return the worm and and bring himself along the inside of the wheel until he is facing out, shoulders somehat parallel to the tube and looking away from the tube. #2 is inside and just ahead of the wheel. #5 man prings up the round in the pouch, stops near #2 and turns his back to the direction of fire (back to the enemy, so to speak) to protect the round. #5 holds the pouch open for #2 to take out the round, powder charge in one hand , projectile in the other. #5 shields the whole operation from enemy fire. This is all happening just ahead and inside the wheel.

This is just my way of describing what #2 does, not from any reference. I expect to be corrected on this. There are some smart redlegs out there who really know their drill.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

Smart red legs folks, some questions (prompted by observing a local unit serving two original Napoleons out here in Idaho):

1. Does it violate safety regulations to have civilians come out of a crowd to fire a cannon (pull the lanyard)?

2. What is the proper way to pass the round to the #2 man in loading - outside the wheel or over the hub inside the wheel?

3. What is the generally accepted minimum interval for firing on an original tube?

4. At what interval should a tube be x-rayed/examined for cracks, etc.?

Thanks gang

1) YES! Think about this, you have an un-trained person detonating several ounces of explossive in a metal pipe with people all around. Now, in good times, it will go bang and all will be fine and dandy. However, IF something bad does happen, do you want to be explaining in court to a victim's family and attorney and a jury why an un-trained person was on the crew in any capacity, much less the #4 man? Not a good idea from a liability standpoint.

2) Inside the wheel and between the bore and wheel. The gun is 100% safe at this point. The dangerous stuff is in the #5 pouch and #2 hands at this point. By regulation drill, #2 stands opposite #1, facing the axle and between the wheel and bore, but far enough out that he does not have to move more than his arms and waist to take the round from #'s pouch and place into the bore.

3) Original or repro, (IMO) you should allow a minimum of 1 minute between firing and reloading. Most events seem to hold to this rule and it makes sense. Nat'l Park Serv. has a 10 minute policy which allows Rangers to talk between firings, and allows the sparks to die completely on their own. It is important to note that the Park Service has never (knock on wood) had an accident attributed to its drill in artillery, and that is a lot of different Parks, crews, guns, and firings over decades. But, in re-enactments a 10 minute rule won't cut it. A 1 minute rule is safe enough. But, #3 MUST stop the vent during the ramming to cut off the bellows effect, and the sponge MUST be bore-sized and not holey or ratty, and the sponge MUST be damp to help extinguish sparks that may be smoldering. Important side bar is the sponge should not be sopping wet. When large black powder fouling embers are splashed, they sometimes form an instant cooled shell and leave the spark hot inside. This is something I heard during a training at the Park Serv, and I believe it was verified in some sort of military test from what I recall. A damp sponge, pressed over the fouling and rotated a couple of times has a better chance to crush and extinguish the ember. It is the lack of air that doe sthe rest as long as #3 is stopping the vent and the sponge is damp and of correct size and condition.

4) Not really necessary unless you are live-firing with projectiles, and then probably every hundred or so times with projectile. I'd ask Steen on this one to get their recommendations. Some tubes then as now are more prone to bursting than others. Parrotts, for example, were nototrious enough that they were returned to foundaries for replacing or inspection after a designated number of shots on the Federal side. If you see something that looks like it might be a hair-line crack forming anywhere on the outside, it should be looked at.

The Park Service crews recently used a bore scope on some tubes and discovered that, even on a newer tube, the worm had worn a groove around the breech which was filled with fouling. And, their tubes are cleaned after each firing event. The Park Serv closely follows 1860s drill so they do not worm after shots like most re-enacting events require. Therefore, their tubes do not see worms nearly as often as private crews' tubes. The concern is that sparks can hang in the breech grooves in that sticky fouling, where #1 is about to press a charge onto. Also, if the vent wire is long enough to touch the bottom of the bore, repeated pingings of the wire have worn little divots into the bore bottom, another place where fouling and sparks can collect. Now, when we prime, we are told to be more gentle, especially when drilling, and when we do worm the bore, we are told to be gentle and not press into the breech as we turn it. Just something to think about as you use your guns.

[116thNY]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

Smart red legs folks, some questions (prompted by observing a local unit serving two original Napoleons out here in Idaho):


4. At what interval should a tube be x-rayed/examined for cracks, etc.?

For what it is worth, I was present when the two Napoleons in question were X-rayed. Both tubes were done about 6-7 years ago and were determined to be safe for firing blank and live charges, the work was done by a professional organization.
I cannot speak to any inspections since that time. I post this merely as one who witnessed the examination with X-ray.

Gary A. Keith

[DougCooper]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

Thanks guys - exactly the answers I was looking for. There are no other units out here and these guys are never exposed to other crews, manuals or NPS scrutiny. Gary (116th NY) and I are trying to help. #1 was the thing that scares us the most and hopefully we will squash that. I hesitated about putting it on a public forum but wanted as much input as I could get.

Thanks!!!

[Lazarus Driver]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

If you don't have a copy of Instructions for Field Artillery by French, Barry, and Hunt get one. This has all of the information on how to load the gun plus tons more. Every artilleryman should have a copy. Yes one has to add in worming as added safety. Also Civil War Historian had an article on the duties of the crew members and where they should be.

Bill Thomas
Driver
Lazarus Battery

[Todd Watts]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

You can probably obtain the easy NPS manual from a nearby National Park. They are on-line for the Parks that use them, and I'm sure they'd be happy to send it to you. I have it someplace in my computer I think, but do have it hard-copied here on my desk which I can fax if needed. It cuts out a lot of the old manuals' drill that we don't use, like bugle calls, marching orders, supplies etc. and focusses on the gun crew activities and safety.

The 1864 US Field Artillery Manual can be purchased hard-bound for about $40 at some sutlers. The Blockade Runner usually has a copy in stock, but I have seen it at other sutlers as well. It is a lot of interesting stuff, but 90% is useless to us today unless we are lucky (or un-lucky depending upon your perspective) enough to have horses.

I think one major problem with re-enacting crews is they are self-taught by watching or learning from other self-taught crews. One bad training drill is all it takes to infect many crews over the next few years. Even in our NPS crews, we have to have annual training for all crew members, regardless of experience, and check-off each position, plus written tests to certify us to be able to volunteer for the crews. We are constantly watched and coached by others and NPS Rangers that are artillery certified to supervise the crews. These guys have to make trips to schools that last a week on the subjects every year or so where they are drilled and shoot live on guns to really study them, not for the enjoyment of shooting live, but to learn the guns' behavior. Recently, at Stones River's annual training weekend, we trained a re-enacting crew (Washington Light) that is allowed to shoot with us at some events on Park property. There is 1 other re-enacting crew (5th Ind.) that is also allowed to do so because they are drilled by-the-book and thus deemed safe enough. If you are able, you may want to gather your crew and take them to one such NPS training weekend.

[vamick]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

If the park service doesnt worm after every shot..what happens with the inevitable debris left in the breech??..Usually the sponge gets to a lot of it I'd guess, but how 'safe' is it to ram another charge home on top of some embedded wad of powder soaked tin foil?..Ive seen this stuff create heat and all but ignite when wadded together after firing...??? thoughts??

[Forquer]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

The 1864 US Field Artillery Manual can be purchased hard-bound for about $40 at some sutlers. The Blockade Runner usually has a copy in stock, but I have seen it at other sutlers as well.

I don't know if he is still in business but Ed O'Dwyer of Shamrock Hill books (www.bookguy.com) was selling the 1864 Field Artillery Tactics (AKA Hunt, Barry, and French) for under $20. Amazon.com also has copies for sale under $20. Barnes & Noble has the volume for under $20 if you belong to their Member's Club, otherwise it's $21.99.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

The Park Service waits 10 minutes between shots. There is no chance that sparks are alive in there after that time has elapsed, but we do get the foil out with the sponge almost completely. If we can't get some foil out with 2 spongings, we have at least 10 minutes in which to worm gently for the foil. But it is #1's job to worm, not #2. For rapid firing like done at re-enactments, the worming is merely a safety step. Were you waiting 10 minutes, you could even dry-sponge which is what we generally do at the Park Service anyway just to save the sponge from rot. I personally do dampen it a little if for no other reason than to lubricate it for ramming, making it pass easier.

The Canadian military & Park Service conducted some experiments many years ago to determine how long powder debris would remain hot/live in the bore of a muzzleloader tube. I have only heard about the tests from Park Service Rangers, so I don't know the specifics or the name of the tests. What was found was that without worming or sponging at all, some embers remained live for as much as 7 minutes if left alone in a tube. Waiting 10 minutes allows any embers to completely burn out with lots of time to spare.

[Bob Herr]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

I just attended the NCWAA course in St. Louis,MO. Their procedure calls for 3 minutes between shots. I think there are some states that have 3 minute rules also. They have developed what I would call a modified procedure from original drills that tries to fill up the 3 minutes. Their main emphasis is on safety which I agree with. Worming was not done between each shot originally but IMHO is a must with modern aluminum foil charges. They also teach dry sponging which was not a period action but is a time filler. - Bob Herr

[Edwin Carl Erwin]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

Doug,

Consider taking a course of live firing Muzzle Loading Artillery under the guidance of a chapter from the United States Field Artillery Association out of Ft. Sill, OK: www.usfaa.com/; usfaa@sirinet.net; 580-355-4677. The course as taught by the Loyal Train of Artillery Chapter is comprehensive with great instructors. Complete the course & you'll know those big smokers as never before.

Regards,

[Danny]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

Almost moot questions, as in my experience it's well established that our drills are not period drills - use of the worm alone an example, but so is the way a charge is handed off and makes it's way to the tube. Frankly it seems pointless to COMMIT to any sort of "proper" drill because the interpetation WILL change even as the season progresses in the same unit.

Also goes without saying that virtually every unit has peculiarities of drill that are far more varied than the generally-accepted rules of safety make necessary. And some of these peculiarites of drill totally stretch the imagination as to why they are done.

An example: Imagine actually pausing for 2 seconds in the middle of the ram action, during battle, to listen (as if anything could be heard during battle in Battery) for something from the vent! And yet this is done as part of drill in a well-respected Battery to which I was assigned for an event. No harm done, as everyone's drill includes monitoring the vent during ram, but pausing for a two-second listen does not make the battle quiet down to allow a better listen. I can understand LOOKING for something from the vent, but that doesen't require a pause.

The point is there are dozens of variations like this one that make learning a "proper" drill only effective for one or two events, a season at most, in my opinion. What might be better to strive for is eliminating the attitude that certain peculiarites of drill, which are actually only incidental in importance, are not either "correct" or "incorrect," but merely "this is the way we want the drill at this event."

The most important factor is that all positions understand and do the drill at hand in total agreement of action. Dare I say that attitude is authentic to the CW period?

-Dan Wykes

[Todd Watts]

Re: Artillery Safety questions

That is right about the silliness of listening to the vent. During ramming you can hear the hissing of air if the #3 stall is not coveirng the vent right, but to a bunch of deafened artillerists in the midst of a battle nobody would have heard that at all. Maybe the gunner or #3 may have noticed smoke coming from the vent and been able to yell "stop vent" or something, but again, in the heat of battle who would have cared!? Get it loaded YESTERDAY would have been the attitude. You can get another #1 man later.;)

As you can probably guess, even back then, each battery would have had slight variances in drills. So long as it is done to safety rules of the events, an dso long as it can be interpretted correctly during living histpry programs, it is all good. Just PLEASE #2 don't look into the bore when the primer fails! Yep, I have seen that more than once.