ArmiSport Issues

[Todd Watts]

Has anybody else noticed problems recently with stock splits on new Armi Sports? I have had 2 de-farbbed Enfields recently crack along the toe for no aparent reason except for a straight and open grain. I have also noticed on a couple others, an Enfield and an 1861 that had splintering happen in the barrel channel as I scraped and sanded. Their wood in the past few months it apppears has gotten pretty weak in quality. As much as I hate to do it, since I like Armis better than Euroclubs, I have to suggest people stay away from Armis for a while until the wood quality improves.:(

[mslaird]

Re: ArmiSport issues

Todd,

When I refinished the stock on my 42 back in February I noticed that the wood was a really open grained, a little more than I would have picked to make a stock for a rifle, and it was also very dry under the finish that they used. I also noticed that they seemed to have taken a bit too much wood out when they inlet the lock, with that combination I am looking for a crack to develop in that area eventually. Since I refinished it, I have given it a new coat of linseed oil every time I have given it a major cleaning after an event.

While we are on the subject of weaponry...

I have couple of ramrods that I need to thread. They are the DGW 1/4 inch 1861 ramrod and the 42 ramrod. What size tap and die set do I need to get to thread them?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: ArmiSport issues

Hallo!

I have seen a number that appear to have been cut pushing the limit between the heartwood and the edge of the sapwood to far.
When stripped, and even out of the box, the grain between the two layers is obvious light and dark, and is poorly positioned so as to pass through the lock area and the wrist.

IMHO, the Italians are using wood that would normally, once upon a time, have been rejected to cut costs rather than raise prices too much (a la Pedersoli).

Curt

[JimKindred]

Re: ArmiSport issues

As long as the cheaper is better attitude of musket consumers continues this problem will never be rectified. The Italian makers assume and correctly in the majority of cases the end user of their product will not pay substantially more for a given product even if it means a substantially higher quality product. So as their costs rise the quality drops to maintain the accustomed to price range.

As the purchasers of the recent Henry and Spencer Bully Buy will note, the quality of those rifles is excellent as compared to the muskets by the same maker. Why? Because shooters, the primary market for those firearms, demand it.

Unfortunately for the consumer once the defarbing process starts the warranty process ends. With no muskets being returned to the maker for warranty repairs or replacement they will happily continue to provide products of the quality they are now.

Like any other product if the consumer demands a better product and is WILLING to pay a higher price for it that better product will be produced. Unfortunately in this hobby that willingness to pay the higher price for a better musket is not among the majority. As long as it goes bang with fire and smoke out the open end they are happy.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: ArmiSport issues

Todd,
It was about a year ago that I bought a new, de-farbed armory bright Enfield from someone in the business. Not you. It was an Armisport. I never contacted them so it doesn't seem right to "bash" them on this forum. I noticed a split in the rammer channel. I pulled on it slightly and a sliver of wood split off about 1/3 the length of the rammer channel. I sanded the wood and oiled it. I hope that is the end of the problem. I should have returned the rifle, but chose to accept it warts and all. I figured that after the sliver of wood split off they might not accept a return or exchange and and I was pressed for time.
I thought this was just an isolated incident but apparently it is not.
At $700 I do not consider this a cheap rifle. At least not cost wise. Quality wise??
I just thought I would share my experience since you posted the question.
Tom Dodson
47th Ga

[David Fox]

Re: ArmiSport issues

When I returned from overseas in late '68, I bought the first of only two replica long arms I've ever owned; a first generation Parker-Hale musketoon. Although it was, of course, based upon a pattern of the Enfield not imported during our Civil War, the quality of fit and finish, the wood, and the proportions were 'right', at least in my eyes. One understands cost-effectiveness, but why have 'most all subsequent long arm replicas been so profoundly clunky? If, say, Springfield in 1861 could turn-out slim rifle-musket barrels, why 148 years of metalurgical progress later can't or won't current manufacturers? More power to the talented fellows who defarb these weapons and God bless them for their service to the hobby, but, in the end, they must feel frustration trying to disguise disproportionately chunky forestocks necessary to wrap around a too-thick barrel. Which brings to mind the question: why can't the manufacturers at least precisely replicate the buttstock proportions? The American arms industry invented the machinery to do just that when Adam was a pup. And have any of them over the years produced a deluxe "Authentic-Campaigner" variant of their offerings with real walnut, black or even European, at extra cost? Gazing at racks of mystery wood on the rifle racks at Gettysburg is depressing. I've but briefly handled the sort-of-a-Colt Colt Special rifle-musket, but it seemed to me to come closest to achieving true replication of an original, odd markings aside, feeling reasonably righteous in ones hands. But, then, what do I know.

[csuniforms]

Re: ArmiSport issues--What to do.

I do know that Armi-Sport and Euroarms will replace stocks if cracked. Go to your sutler and inform them that you want a new stock or replacement. We have done it at Lodgewood Mfg. in Wisconsin. I will say the warranty, I do not know exactly what it is, 1 year? is in play. You might be out of luck if your firearm is more than a few years old or you bought it second hand.

I do not know how I can stress this. If you are paying $700 for a repro. gun, and then $200 more for a re-d0 upgrade. You are very close to purchasing an original musket or rifle. This is what I have used, an original Model 42, and a 55' rifled musket for 35 years. I still have them, they still work, and they did not rust or fall apart in the bad weather. I put some nicks in the wood, but there were a bunch there before, and the guns were made to weather the weather!! Carrying an original 42', Enfield, Austrian, or 61' or 63' it just has a feel all to its own. No, I would not take a pristine Civil War firearm in the field- one that would cost $2000 or more, but a restoration, absolutely!!!

The guns are still out there for $800 to $900. Cut downs are $300 to $450. I just had a freind tell me he purchased two Austrian cut downs for $200 each and one is a possible Iron Brigade rifle!! The barrels and the nipples can be relined or redrilled for $300 to $400, new forestocks, bands, and replacement ramrods are available-- and presto! you have a new toy! The members of the North-South Skirmish Association are experts at rebuilding old Civil War firearms. You can buy any type of replacement part, rebuilt firearm, bayonets, locks, stocks, and find people to help you at their Nationals held in Winchester Virginia in May and October, and the public is welcome free to roam sutlers row. Lots of good deals there if you look. :money:The NSSA, are not the most authenticly dressed organization, but they know their Civil War firearms and how to shoot them. The locks, the bands, the springs-- after 146 years still work great. I think I will do a presentation on how to restore an old gun-- I have two Austrians, one marked CS in the stock, I am working on now. Will show a step by step reconstruction with costs.

CSuniforms
Tom Arliskas

[mslaird]

Re: ArmiSport issues

...Gazing at racks of mystery wood on the rifle racks at Gettysburg is depressing...

Mr. Fox,

Out at Pea Ridge NMP we were doing some work on some of our living history weapons, a Euroarms Mississippi and we noticed the same "mystery wood" that you mentioned. After the stain and finish was taken down to the bare wood, it had a varied, large grain with green and pink hues to it. I did not recognize the wood and I took it to one of our arborists. After a very long inspection of the piece, he pronounced it to be a species of dogwood. Aesthetically, it is a very beautiful piece of wood but... It is not the right wood for the stock to reproduce a Mississippi Rifle. On a good note, Dogwood is a very hard wood and it should last. Walnut takes a long time to grow to cutting maturity and hardwoods for applications from rifle stocks to parts for musical instruments are getting scarce and the expense of such material is continuing to climb. There are some of the woods that I have seen that have a grain similar to poplar some are birch, and I have seen a lot of beech stocks on the imported guns as well.

I too echoe the sentiment of not only the correct shaping of the stocks, even though I understand the business application of keeping manufacturing steps, necessary personnel performing labor and costs to a minimum, but some of the names that are manufacturing these replicas have been in the gunmaking business for a very, very long time. The rammers still being two piece welded rather than steel stock turned down for a more authentic, more reliable and longer lasting rammer and the fact that the trigger guards on the US Models being manufactured with a dent in them instead of being rounded as the originals were. The "furniture" being the wrong thickness of metal, or being the wrong shape or configuration. Those things could be simply fixed and I believe that people would pay the necessary costs to have them right.

I have very little experience with the processing of hardwoods other than their use in riflestocks and musical instruments so I may be a bit off with this last comment. The problem with the wood splintering and cracking may be an issue of not only the species of the wood but also in the drying method used as the wood is prepared. Too much heat or too long of a drying period would produce a dry, brittle wood susceptable to easily cracking and splintering. The original firearms that I have inspected, to me, seemed to be extremely thin in areas in the stock that before I started studying the matter intently, I would have assumed would not work out well with regard to the longevity of the piece, however, due to the species and construction method, the stocks on the originals hold up astonishingly well with most of the damage being the nicks and splits in the rammer channel, cracks in the lock area and some splintering along the top of the stock, next to the barrel, where it is thinnest. Although, again this suprises me, given the thickness of the wood there the damage is minimal unless the weapon has suffered through serious abusive conditions.

[Todd Watts]

Re: ArmiSport issues

I spoke with BRi today while I picked up yet another new Armi Enfield to defarb for this poor customer as the 3rd attempt to get him a gun without cracks. BRi is calling Armi Sport Monday and is going to tell them we have seen poor wood quality from them and want answers. Now, a few yrs ago, Armi was using some sort of red stain on the wood with straight grain. This past yr they switched to a dark walnut stain with clear sealant over it. This masks the sapwood well. Euro does it too, as do most gun makers. Sapwood is cheaper to use and there is nothing really wrong with it other than it is ugly unless slathered in stain. I sometimes add a little walnut stain to my linseed to help darken the sapwood only because I know customers don't like the plain light sapwood look. It is fine as far as strength.

I am currently doing this customer's 3rd time's the charm Armi Enfield alongside a slightly older new Armi Enfield with the red stain. The wood quality is the same with straight open grain. The rasp literally pulls long strands of wood out. On the new one I picked up today, I spent time on the inspection to choose the 1 of the 3 on the racks with the least straight grain on the toe and am purposefully not thinning it as much as usual along the toe as I like to do, hoping that the extra wood will hold it together better if there is a flaw in there I can't see.

It is interesting that a few weeks back a new Armi Enfield I got had a barrel weight that mimiced the old P-H Enfields! I was so exceited I even made a special mention to Craig Barry. Then, I have not received any others like that. Armi is getting parts for their products made at different places it seems and I can't see any rhyme nor reason to the pieces. They still make great defarbs I think, but are going through a period of "WTH!?" regarding stocks.

It is true that once defarbbed, any warranty is void. Be aware of that fact is all. I do all I can to make them right if problems develop with mine (and others) but can't uarantee what manufacturers will do. I am, afterall, removing the barrel proofs and maker's markings and moving the serial #s out of sight. Manufacturers get a bit testy when gunsmiths go about removing markings that the makers love so much to whack all over the place.

As for the rammer threads, the .58" guns typically get a 10-32 TPI thread. I'll need to check the '42's threads and get back to you. they are larger but off-hand I can't recall which tap I use on them and dare not guess lest somebody use my advice to proove my idiocy.:tounge_sm

[Craig L Barry]

Re: ArmiSport issues

Watts, you old barrel polisher. I bet you did get excited about finding a decent Armi Chiappa barrel. It would have to be very, very good to get close to the old Parker Hale made in Birmingham. About ten years ago as I was forcefully sliding the top barrel band off a repro Armi Sport US 1842 a sliver of wood stuck into the fleshy part of my palm just below the thumb. As I pulled it out with pliers, it kept coming and coming. It ended up being about three and a half inches long. Point being, grainy sapwood gun stocks that splinter are not exactly a new problem, and this is why I would suggest buying a weapon in person rather than some other way. You can inspect the stock (and lock function) then select a good one. Or you can roll the dice.

Getting a decent weapon is a hit or miss proposition. The Pedersoli is (in fact) a much better product, they just don't have much of a Civil War product line, and they are very expensive. As far as voiding the manufacturers warranty, it is true that hacking about a pound of wood off the stock will probably make the manufacturer squeamish about honoring a warranty for any cracks that might develop.

[JimKindred]

Re: ArmiSport issues

I too echoe the sentiment of not only the correct shaping of the stocks, even though I understand the business application of keeping manufacturing steps, necessary personnel performing labor and costs to a minimum, but some of the names that are manufacturing these replicas have been in the gunmaking business for a very, very long time. The rammers still being two piece welded rather than steel stock turned down for a more authentic, more reliable and longer lasting rammer and the fact that the trigger guards on the US Models being manufactured with a dent in them instead of being rounded as the originals were. The "furniture" being the wrong thickness of metal, or being the wrong shape or configuration. Those things could be simply fixed and I believe that people would pay the necessary costs to have them right.

The majority of buyers do not know the differences and a majority of those that might know of the mistakes don't care. As long as the public will accept the muskets as they are the manufacturers will continue to build them that way.

[mslaird]

Re: ArmiSport issues

Todd,

I appreciate it very much. If it helps a bit the shaft on the 42 ramrod is exactly .218" or roughly 7/32.

Mr. Kindred,

I agree with you completely. On a hunch I measured the two Armi Sport origined two piece ramrods that I have laying about the shop and both of them were exactly the same diameter. I tested them three times each to get an average and every time I took a measurement the calipers read the same, .235". After having done that, I can see part of the answer to my question/gripe. One ramrod shank, several different head shapes. It costs less to make and requires less skilled personnel to make it. I also agree with what you said about the majority of the buyers in their customer base do not care about the nature of the ramrods on their guns and will either fix them when they come apart or replace them as needed. That fact in and of itself does not provide any incentive to the company to retool part of their line to fix what they would consider a minor problem in design.

Craig,

The 55 is amazing.

Thanks all.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: ArmiSport issues

The $700 price I mentioned was for a de-farbed product. That was the full price. Best I can remember, including shipping and a de-farbed bayonet the total pay out was $725. Other than the sliver of wood that split off in the rammer channel the rifle has performed flawlessly.
I have an original 1861 Lorenz that I have used on a couple of occasions. I paid the same for it as I did for my de-farbed Enfield. It does have a couple of issues but is probably as field worthy as I. We are both about the same age. It has the strongest lock spring I have felt on any weapon of the period: repro or original.
I have mixed feelings on using original firearms. There is no denying that there is a special feeling in using an original weapon. On the other hand, I do not want to be the one who ruins a functional weapon that has survived nearly 150 years.
Tom Dodson
47th Ga
Co. A, 11th Ga Militia

[Craig L Barry]

Re: ArmiSport issues

Matthew:
The 1855/CS Richmond was done with you in mind. Kept my eyes open until the right project came along. Start out with a good gun and you can end up with something special. I am glad you are pleased with it. The Watchdog raffled off one for battlefield preservation just like it at Corinth back in 2006.

Tom:
Enter the "put together" (my P53 is an example). A put together is a gun built using the best disassociated original parts that can be found with as few reproduction parts as possible. Mine was an original "blonde wood" 1862 Birmingham Sargant & Son which had been cut down to two band length and subsequently returned to rifle-musket proportions by me over time, as parts were located. No piece of history is lost if one of these is damaged as with a completely original weapon, and it is about as accurate as you can expect to get 150 years later. You just replace whatever broke on go on your way. Watts did the barrel. A good English made (not Belgian) P53 lock is going to be superior to a freshly made Italian reproduction lock even after all this time. The only bad news, it can take some fitting to get the parts to work together. And here is more good news, given the practices in evidence at gun shows, much of what you find there is basically "put together." It is a time honored tradition to restore damaged weapons to service, and one of the driving forces behind "parts interchangeability." Unfortunately for those trying to do an Enfield or a M-1854 Lorenz, those were hand made weapons which are famous for not interchanging parts.

[mslaird]

Re: ArmiSport issues

Craig,

I have been after a Lorenz for a long, long time and I keep seeing the 1854s that were altered back to flintlock in the later half of the 19th century, post ACW if my memory serves me correct. They normally do not go for a terribly high price and of those that I have seen, they are generally in really good shape. Would one of those be a good way to go in building a servicable Lorenz?