New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

[JimKindred]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

I just don't see it. I'm not going to name any real names here but hypothetically my company wouldn't buy out "Bob's mainstream sutlery" to eliminate competition. We don't draw on the same pool of customers. Sure, a mainstream re-enactor might buy a cap or a housewife from me at some point, but the guy who wants a $60 Pakistani sack coat isn't going to buy my $200 sack coat, even if I eliminated 50% of the vendors where they could have got one (as Pedersoli did with EA, leaving only Armi Sport as a source for mid-range muskets.)

Lamborghini competes with Ferrari, not with Chevrolet. Different products, price points, and pools of customers.

Could it be that they really just did not have any clue whatsoever who their market is? I imagine any company who thinks they can get away with a 100% price increase in a year's time for a product really has no clue who it is they're trying to sell to. Granted, the price increase for a higher quality of materials, better fit and finish, and a plethora of improvements can certainly be understood, but when a large portion of their customer base cannot tell the difference and truthfully, do not need the improvements (such as a match grade barrel) that again, just does not make any sense. Cosmetic changes necessary to make an arm authentic (basically improve the Euroarms product and take their market share) should not have cost considerably more than the original EA retail price, but the lion's share of this dramatic price increase is coming from features that are entirely superfluous to re-enactors. Why buy out a company to take their market share, then essentially throw that market share away by replacing that company's product line with ludicrously priced products?

All I know is that the community at large will not pay $1,300 for a new musket. A decade of doing USSS re-enacting where our Sharps rifles cost anywhere from $900-$1,200 taught me that. I also know that if I were an executive at Armi Chiappa right now, I would think that Christmas had come early.

Dan,

You can basically count the number of companies that produce quality muskets on one hand. Eliminating one has the potential to increase your market share because there is an extemely limited number of choices the customer base has to go to. If one company continues to buy the others eventually you will only have a single source and they will then be able to set the price any where they want it.

As was said earlier and as it has been so since the hobby started the musket manufacturers are not approaching reenactors to see what they want they are going to the shooters. What is wanted here is not reaching the levels at the manufacturers that could make a difference.

Also, the prices quoted in the original post may be the MSRP and few if any firearms actually sell for that. I expect the sale price to be a bit lower.

[Dbackfed]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Dan, any chance you know what it costs to rebore the rifle barrel from Hoyt or someone else? I still don't see that cost plus defarbing would cost more than $1000. I agree with others in that Pedersoli didn't study their markets carefully. I wonder how soon it will be before they drop their price. Does Armi Sport have stock I can buy?

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Eliminate one more level of competition.

I just don't see it. I'm not going to name any real names here but hypothetically my company wouldn't buy out "Bob's mainstream sutlery" to eliminate competition. We don't draw on the same pool of customers. Sure, a mainstream re-enactor might buy a cap or a housewife from me at some point, but the guy who wants a $60 Pakistani sack coat isn't going to buy my $200 sack coat, even if I eliminated 50% of the vendors where they could have got one (as Pedersoli did with EA, leaving only Armi Sport as a source for mid-range muskets.)

Lamborghini competes with Ferrari, not with Chevrolet. Different products, price points, and pools of customers.

Could it be that they really just did not have any clue whatsoever who their market is? I imagine any company who thinks they can get away with a 100% price increase in a year's time for a product really has no clue who it is they're trying to sell to. Granted, the price increase for a higher quality of materials, better fit and finish, and a plethora of improvements can certainly be understood, but when a large portion of their customer base cannot tell the difference and truthfully, do not need the improvements (such as a match grade barrel) that again, just does not make any sense. Cosmetic changes necessary to make an arm authentic (basically improve the Euroarms product and take their market share) should not have cost considerably more than the original EA retail price, but the lion's share of this dramatic price increase is coming from features that are entirely superfluous to re-enactors. Why buy out a company to take their market share, then essentially throw that market share away by replacing that company's product line with ludicrously priced products?

All I know is that the community at large will not pay $1,300 for a new musket. A decade of doing USSS re-enacting where our Sharps rifles cost anywhere from $900-$1,200 taught me that. I also know that if I were an executive at Armi Chiappa right now, I would think that Christmas had come early.

[JimKindred]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

So, ultimately, why did they do this, business-sense wise?

Possible explanations:

1) Price of raw materials
2) Euro/dollar relationship
3) "Because they can"... they hope they can get these prices.
4) Italian/EC regulations MIGHT have changed somehow (anyone know there?)
5) US import laws might have changed

Anyone out there can add-to, prove or deny this list?

JLLO

Eliminate one more level of competition.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Just thinking out loud here, anyone with thoughts please chime in:

If Pedersoli's main focus was to bring a new and improved product line to the competitive shooters and they are the primary or only concern, why buy out Euroarms at all? Surely EA wasn't a "huge" player in the competitive shooting market, gearing their product line primarily to re-enactors. So why eliminate an entire product line, then release a new product at double the price and beg off the price increase by saying "these are for competitive shooters, not re-enactors, so the price is higher."

That's a lot like Porsche buying out Chevrolet, then the next year releasing a line of Porches and expecting everyone who would have bought a Chevy to pay twice and much to drive around a Porsche pickup truck.

The more I think about this the less sense it makes to me!

So, ultimately, why did they do this, business-sense wise?

Possible explanations:

1) Price of raw materials
2) Euro/dollar relationship
3) "Because they can"... they hope they can get these prices.
4) Italian/EC regulations MIGHT have changed somehow (anyone know there?)
5) US import laws might have changed

Anyone out there can add-to, prove or deny this list?

JLLO

[Philo]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

So who would be Pedersoli's POC if they found themselves needing to contact the NSSA for approval?

John Holland, who is the chair of the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee. Since John is not a member of this forum, he can be reached through the N-SSA bulletin board, which is linked off the N-SSA home page.

https://www.n-ssa.net

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Just thinking out loud here, anyone with thoughts please chime in:

If Pedersoli's main focus was to bring a new and improved product line to the competitive shooters and they are the primary or only concern, why buy out Euroarms at all? Surely EA wasn't a "huge" player in the competitive shooting market, gearing their product line primarily to re-enactors. So why eliminate an entire product line, then release a new product at double the price and beg off the price increase by saying "these are for competitive shooters, not re-enactors, so the price is higher."

That's a lot like Porsche buying out Chevrolet, then the next year releasing a line of Porches and expecting everyone who would have bought a Chevy to pay twice and much to drive around a Porsche pickup truck.

The more I think about this the less sense it makes to me!

[JimKindred]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

To all,

One very important point of clarification to Herr Schmidts original post is that the N-SSA has not had any contact with Pedersoli concerning the approval or pre production review of any of their new Civil War firearms line.

Should any of you have questions or comments concerning the N-SSA small arms approval process, please feel free to contact me.

Regards,


Phil Spaugy
Deputy Commander
North South Skirmish Association.

pspaugy@aol.com

So who would be Pedersoli's POC if they found themselves needing to contact the NSSA for approval?

[Philo]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

To all,

One very important point of clarification to Herr Schmidts original post is that the N-SSA has not had any contact with Pedersoli concerning the approval or pre production review of any of their new Civil War firearms line.

Should any of you have questions or comments concerning the N-SSA small arms approval process, please feel free to contact me.

Regards,


Phil Spaugy
Deputy Commander
North South Skirmish Association.

pspaugy@aol.com

[JimKindred]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Also the point that they still ignore the demands of the reenacment community.

Jan,

Believe or not, the reenacting community is not who is driving the train on this market, it is the competitive shooting crowd. The manufacturers in the NSSA find a long established competitive body to contact about future production needs and wants. The requirements of the NSSA are all too often much different than that of the reenacting community. In the reenacting world with hundreds of various groups that do not seem to get along well with each other how would a manufacturer determine who to contact for the input?

[J.H.Berger]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

It is astonishing how ignorant Pedersoli is about what they are rebuilding. To use American walnut on a European musket is an unnecessary expense and it is incorrect too. The price is a nuisance! Also the point that they still ignore the demands of the reenacment community. Believe it or not. Although Italy is just two countries away from here the muskets are much more expensive here in Germany than in the US and I am sure they will cost about 1200 Euro which is ca. 1560$. For that money an original is not far away any more!

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Like you, Dan, I'm interested to see how this plays out in the hobby at-large.

The sad part is, with just a little more effort, the Pedersoli could have been a great repro. Simply get the stock contours and profiles right, and replace the anemic trigger and trigger guard. While a very minor issue, the snail on the bolster of the barrel could have been reshaped in a couple minor ways to improve it. I'm impressed they beefed up the hammer! That was a good call on their part.

Given that Pedersoli has priced themselves out of the market, folks will be forced to other options. Dan, I believe that you will be proven correct and we will see the mainstream moving toward Indian/Paki muskets. This will be a sad development, if it happen. Safety issues aside, those muskets are just not good reproductions... they're not reproductions at all! I saw the paki version of the US "1816" recently and it looked like a boat oar with a flintlock on it. Really nothing to it; it was just intended to be a prop.

Hopefully, Armi-Sport will continue to improve and will be able to fill the void. My "pie in the sky" dream would be to see some small to medium size American maker step into the market with a high end repro that truly "gets it right".

For me for now, I'm sticking with custom builds, parts guns, and restorations.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Curt,

Thanks for passing those along, having followed some of the videos and news coming out I had been "waiting in the wings" to see what the ultimate price would be. I think Pedersoli has a hard road ahead of them. With the availability of custom made rifles and muskets, both on the second hand and new made markets, I can't see the N-SSA shooters flocking to Pedersoli to shell out prices like they are asking. Forget about the re-enactor market, they have completely priced themselves out of it.

The ramifications of this are really what interest me. The options available to the person looking for a musket will be more limited than ever. With Pedersoli removing Euroarms from the market, and then pricing their products out of contention, the only option will be Armi Sport, or a second hand musket. I have it on good authority that the Armi Sport Enfields are improving with each batch (still a long way to go, but that's something.) The price for a NIB musket will likely be around $650, and $900 for a defarbed musket. Used untouched muskets will likely command $500-$600, with used defarbed Italian muskets priced around $700-$750. So the choices for a NEW fully defarbed musket will be either $900 for an AS, or somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,400 for a Pedersoli.

This is not consistent with inflation, and I don't believe for a minute that the market will bear it.

The importers of the Indian muskets are licking their lips right now, and I can honestly see that being where the mainstream re-enactors go.

Meanwhile, the parts alone for a custom built 1861 Springfield run about $800. I have a feeling that those with the skills to assemble these far superior reproductions will emerge as the dominant force to produce authentic firearms for the campaigner community. I imagine that a superb quality custom made musket could be retailed for less than a NIB Pedersoli, certainly less than a defarbed one would cost.

Lots of things to consider, it will be interesting to see how the firearms market develops in the next two years.

[KPavia]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Seeing those prices makes me really, really glad that I already have my own M1842, M1861 and P53. The only time I'll have spend more than $1000 on a civil war era musket will be on an original.

[Canebrake Rifle Guards]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Why not just watch football on the couch and daydream about a P-53?

Greg Starbuck