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Colt 2nd Generation revolver reproductions

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  • Colt 2nd Generation revolver reproductions

    Hallo!

    I thought I would get double mileage out of this post. I had posted it in the Cavalry COI, but there may be interest elsewhere.

    Colt "Generations..."

    Colt "Generations" are confusing because they are NUG a Colt M1873 "Peacemaker" evolution or history, but the blackpowder line has its own evolutionary path. Easy part first: "1st Generations" are the original production Colt Hartford usually always the "M1873." (1st Generation 1873-1941, 2nd Generation 1956-1974, 3rd Generation 1976 to present. With the odd ball Czech "Colt Cowboy' M1873 1999-2003).

    But, I will talk about the blackpowder line with its own generations- and yes original production arms are the "1st Generation." So, from here on, I will be talking about the BP line only.

    In 1971 Colt decided to reintroduce the M1851 Navy which was last made in 1873. Part of that was based on the success of pioneer Val Forgett of Navy Arms with his work in the mid to late 1950's, and partly due to the explosion of interest with the Civil War Centennial and the Uberti made revolvers appearing in the Italian "Spaghetti Westerns."

    But here is where a relatively unknown pioneer named Lou Imperato comes in. Between 1971 and 1973, Forgett sold Colt the rough castings used to make the new “2nd Generation." But in 1973 Colt was looking for a new supplier, and in stepped Imperato who had been Colt's biggest US distributor. That lasted until Colt decided to end the first series of percussion revolvers in 1976. In 1973. Imperato had purchased the Iver Johnson factory in Fitchburg, MASS and moved it to Middlesex, NJ. He approached Colt with the idea to produce the entire "line" of black powder revolvers arguing that the Italians had been doing it well since the late 1950's. Colt was interested, but still lacked production capability. With the Iver Johnson works, Imperato was in the right place at the right time with the right idea, and Colt signed on to launch the new "F Series" of the 2nd Generations with Lou Imperato as a subcontractor.

    Imperato had the hand-fitted/assembled stuff, but could not mass production. He had the barrels, cylinders, and back straps cas tin Italy (as Forgett had done). Imperato made the frames, center pins, cones, screws, springs, and built every one at the Middlesex facility to Colt standards. The finished revolvers were shipped to Colt at Hartford for final inspection and distribution.

    Next, Colt added the 3rd Model Dragoon, and brought out the M1860 Army in November 1978. (Colt would add the 1st and 2nd Model Dragoons in 1980.) The '60 Army remained in production until 1982 in various versions. The first though was the rebated cylinder version made November 1978 through November 1982; and with the fluted cylinder from July 1980 through October 1981. There were also a number of commemoratives and cased sets.

    In December of 1979 Colt introduced the M1862 Pocket Navy, and in January 1980 the M1862 Pocket Police. Also in September 1980, they introduced the M1861 Navy revolver, making them through October 1981.

    A new line of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Model Dragoons was added in 1980 as well- all three coming out in January. In June of 1980 came the M1847 Walker released as a limited cased set with R.L. Wilson's book.

    In 1979 a special edition of the M1848 Baby Dragoon was released, and between February 1981 and April 1982 it was made for general sale.

    Roughly around 1980/1981, while Imperato was churning out the 2nd Generations. a small number were diverted to the Colt Custom Shop "in the white" to be engraved by some of the masters working at Colt at that time (or shipped to American Master Engravers, Inc), and completed as finely engraved customs.

    Anyways, the "2nd Generation" (C Series and F Series) were introduction by Imperato at Iver Johnson for a little over a decade before coming to an end in 1982. So, that makes the Colt M1851 Navy, M1847 Walker, M1848 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Model Dragoon, M1860 Army rebated and fluted, M1861 Navy, M1862 Pocket/Police, and the M1862 Pocket Navy.

    Yes, they are NUG generally held to be "superb." And they have developed a culture and mythos all their own as to the " real Colt Colt" or more factually just Italian/Iver Johnson built and finished to Colt standards and with Colt only doing the marketing, selling, and distributing.
    But then that gets Modern Political as Colt went tout of business and into bankruptcy, and was bought out by foreign concerns who still run it as "Colt."

    So, the "2nd Generations" are collectable and controversial, but are "the best" revolvers out there- so one does pay extra when one shows up.

    Curt
    Curt Schmidt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
    -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
    -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
    -Vastly Ignorant
    -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

  • #2
    Re: Colt 2nd Generation revolver reproductions

    Curt:
    I need to outfit some new California Volunteer cavalrymen with Colt 1851 Navy revolvers. Is there a good Italian repro that will give us more bang for the buck, or should I just stick with the 2nd Generation Colts?
    Andy Masich

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Colt 2nd Generation revolver reproductions

      Hallo!

      Hahahaha! That answer is a heretical and controversial one and could fill up several pages. :)

      In brief and to over-generalize...

      IMHO and experience.

      1. No doubt about it. The Lou Imperato/Iver Johnson/Italian built to "Colt standards" inspected by Colt Hartford and marketed/distributed by Colt Back in the Day are the best reproductions period.
      However, they are nearly over 30 years old, in limited or scarce supply, and NUG cost 2.0, 2.5, or 3.0 or so times what the Uberti versions do.

      The advantage is premium quality of fit, finish, metal treatments (finishing, hardening, tempering), functioning, AND proper Colt stampings.

      2. Mid Range Compromise: the higher end "QC" Uberti's imported by Cimarrron Arms who contract for the "better" made Uberti line in regards to Italian quality of fit, finish, metal treatments (finishing, hardening, tempering), and functioning.

      However, the Colt markings are absent, and the hot vat bluing (modern wet black ink) and bogus cyanide gas coloring gives them a different look.

      And with the modern markings, and bluing and coloring, they still require "de-farbing" work to make them "less wrong." ("More right" is the other side of the glass half full/half empty equation balance...)

      And not that Cimarron's level of purchased QC is always "perfect."

      3. Uberti Uberti's.

      4. Uberti "imports" that are done to lesser QC standards for various USA importers such as Dixie or Cabela's, etc., where there is much randomness and/or absence of QC and Inspection and one "rolls the die" risking one that is good, okay, or so-so in quality of fit, finish, metal treatments (finishing, hardening, tempering), and functioning.

      5. "Second Generation" Pietta. The best of the lowest is Pietta NOW. Ten years ago or so, Pietta was producing hideous QC-lackng products with MANY horror stories. They did wise up, and now make a basically acceptable lower-end product. BUT, with the randomness of QC, one lad will say it is good, and the next will curse it because out of the box it will not cycle or cock. Pietta's are NUG 2/3rd's the cost of Uberti/Uberti.

      6. Chiappa/Armi Sport. Middle of the lowest. BUT, with the randomness of QC, one lad will say it is good, and the next will curse it because out of the box it will not cycle or cock. Or, lads who do not know much, as with the Pietta line, will say they are great and at 6-12 feet away, one cannot tell.

      But yes, the old "Colt 2nd Generations" are the "Best" of the reproductions.

      Most of wha ti personally have and use, and in the metallic conversions as well, are "de-farbed' Uberti/Cimarron versions as a second choice. And that is my fault as in my youthful boyness,and what I was "doing" and "needing" in those Daze, I ballked at the Colt prices and had Uberti/Uberti revolvers. With 20/20 hindsight, I NOW wish I had gone with the Colt 2nd Generations instead (because while i can redo the blue and the color hardening... the absence of the historically correct Colt markings is an issue now but not when I was a Youth.

      Colt 3rd Generations (AKA Black Powder "Signature Series") should have been, but are not, the second choice. They are not because of the "signature" which creates historical problems in trying to remove it and refinish ESPECIALLY on iron backstrapped M1851's or M1860's....

      Others' mileage will vary...

      Curt
      Curt Schmidt
      In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

      -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
      -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
      -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
      -Vastly Ignorant
      -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Colt 2nd Generation revolver reproductions

        Didn't see above (unless I missed it) either of you guys mentioning that the 2nd Gen Black Powder Series Colts will "Letter" from Colt. So they are considered "true Colts". (remember that the original Walkers weren't manufactured by Colt either, yet they are considered "real Colts") The 3rd Gen "Signature Series" don't "letter" from Colt as I understand it and so aren't considered "true Colts".

        I've picked up several 2nd Gen Colts "new in the box" over the last several years. The ones I've gotten were all around $750.00 or so for both Navys, 1860 Army, and the Dragoons. The Walker was over $1,000 (don't remember the exact amount now) and are harder to come by as there weren't that many of them made.
        Kevin Spangler

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Colt 2nd Generation revolver reproductions

          Hallo!

          I did not as my bias is rather "harsh."

          IMHO, heretical and controversial, comes down to whether one values Italian parts, assembled by Iver Johnson to Colt "standards" as a Colt.... because Colt issues a "letter" that says they are Colts.
          (And collectors NUG are willing to pay the premium for that.)

          I don't personally.

          That being said, I prefer the Colt 2nd Generations not because of their "value" or that they can be "Colt Lettered" but rather that they are "the best" reproduction(s) to be had. And why I have and use them.

          But I also believe my Volkswagen is a "German" car even though it is made in Mexico. :) :)

          Others' mileage, will vary...

          Curt
          Curt Schmidt
          In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

          -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
          -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
          -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
          -Vastly Ignorant
          -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

          Comment

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