Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

[KarinTimour]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

Dear Ohioyankee:

Cannons fired in the streets of New York? During the Draft Riots?

Yep. Here's a few excerpts from "The Devil's Own Work: The Civil War Draft Riots and the Fight to Reconstruct America" by Barnet Schecter.

On Wednesday:
150 volunteers (civilians who were given arms to help quell the riots) under the commande of Col. Jardine were sent to First Avenue and 19th street. According to the New York Times "they raked the avenue up and down" with ten rounds of cannister fired from two howitzers.

On Thursday:
Three companies of militia were dispatched to First Avenue and 28th street to defend several armaments factories. They had a howitzer with them and had to use it to disperse the crowds at least once that morning.

On Thursday evening:
Capt. Putnam, who had been sent to recover the body of a cavalry sgt. who had been killed and abandoned in an earlier rout by the rioters just east of Gramercy Park. He had howitzers and several companies of infantry with him and they drove the rioters all the way to Second Avenue and 31st Street, where they decided to make a stand. His howitzers dispersed canister and the crowd fought from windows.

In the movie they show gunboats firing on the city. That never happened, though there were gunboats by Tuesday anchored at the foot of Wall Street, ready to fire into the financial district if it were needed. There were also several cannon in the Customs Building, but as far as I recall, they were never needed.

Hope that's helpful,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: ktimour@aol.com

[Pvt.Tyler]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

I love on the Special Features of "Gods & Generals" they have a segment called Authenticites of the Film. Every time I see it I think someone will come on and say
THERE ARE NONE
HAHAHA

[ohioyankee]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

I was thinking about the film Gangs of New York yesterday. An okay film. In the movie at the climax of the New York draft riots cannon are fired into the city. (I did not think this was true) but are the any acounts of this?

[Arkansas volunteer]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

I agree "Ride with the Devil."

[GASharpshooter]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

In the meantime, I suppose I'll just watch my nine volumes of Ken's masterpiece(s) again (but that's a documentary...though it is an untouchable documentary).

It's a good documentary, but there are many places it could be touched ;)

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

Hello,


I thought Wicked Spring by a uniform and euipment stand point was good, but the rest of the movie was just okay.

Andrew Kasmar

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

"and other historical fiction movies of today, films have been making historians' jobs way harder in what they teach to the public/students".

Johnny,
The other side of the coin is some kid might say to himself; "I might look for a book on it" after seeing a movie, like Flyboys for instance, which took every cliché, myth, half truths about first World War air combat and lumped them together, I haven't enjoyed a "Knights of the air" movie so much since I saw The Blue Max and The Great Waldo Pepper as a kid and those caused me to read everything I could find on Charles Nungesser, Georges Guynemer, James McCudden, Edward Mannock, William Bishop, Rene Fonck, Eddie Rickenbacker, Manfred Von. SPADS, Fokkers, Gothas and Zeps.

You look past the fact that all Triplanes weren't painted all red sometimes. While still keep wishing they'd get it right though.

With respect,
Bill O'Dea
Salt Boilers mess
122nd NY.

Bill-

Right, the effect of "historical-themed" movies has the potential to do the opposite... actually drive people to find the real history behind the movie myth. For evidence of this, just look at the recent "Pirates of the Carribbean" craze and how many books in Barnes and Noble/Borders et al were pushed after the movie on historical pirates. The National Treasure and Da Vinci Code franchise seems to make people want to find out about the actual historical Masons, Knights Templars, Jesus, etc.

I am sure that Gone with the Wind has inspired MANY people toward the real history in our hobby, as well it has inspired just as many as toward the mainstream side.

Present company on this forum should NOT be included in that last statement. :wink_smil

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

[BillO'Dea]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

"and other historical fiction movies of today, films have been making historians' jobs way harder in what they teach to the public/students".

Johnny,
The other side of the coin is some kid might say to himself; "I might look for a book on it" after seeing a movie, like Flyboys for instance, which took every cliché, myth, half truths about first World War air combat and lumped them together, I haven't enjoyed a "Knights of the air" movie so much since I saw The Blue Max and The Great Waldo Pepper as a kid and those caused me to read everything I could find on Charles Nungesser, Georges Guynemer, James McCudden, Edward Mannock, William Bishop, Rene Fonck, Eddie Rickenbacker, Manfred Von. SPADS, Fokkers, Gothas and Zeps.

You look past the fact that all Triplanes weren't painted all red sometimes. While still keep wishing they'd get it right though.

With respect,
Bill O'Dea
Salt Boilers mess
122nd NY.

[WoodenNutmeg]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

Could Hollywood EVER make a very historically accurate film and tell the stories of history you and I know as they were known to have occurred?

Simple answer to the question? Yes. Actual outcome to the question? Only time will tell.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

I should've just put a page on the Daybreaks site about the film...sometimes, I don't know where to begin to address it.

SO much stuff is skewed, compressed, and taken out of chronology and geography in that movie.

Remember Scorsese's own comment on the film: "it's an opera." Think of it as that, and you'll be fine. It is not a documentary, and treads dangerously at the level of "historical fiction."

"Opera," though, "opera!"

Yep... when watching opera, the fat lady with the Viking horns by no way represents a true historical Viking...

I really did once meet Viking reenactors in Germany who were from Norway... wow, talk about unbathed and very hairy.

That was just the women. ;) LOL

But seriously-

I always got the feeling while watching Gangs things presented were a little too grubby/overblown/hellish. Yes, New York in that time was pretty foul, but just how foul were they would be appropriate to ask...

Yes, agreed, while Gangs is a fun film, it does further "murky the waters" of historical "accuracy" of Holly-weird... if such a thing can be achieved in Hollywood today. From Robin Hood with Errol Flynn in green tights, to Gone with the Wind Scarlett's bangs that didn't exist in real 1860s images, and other historical fiction movies of today, films have been making historians' jobs way harder in what they teach to the public/students.

Rhetorical question, I figure: Could Hollywood EVER make a very historically accurate film and tell the stories of history you and I know as they were known to have occurred? Is it budget (or lack of) that holds producers/directors from telling historical stories the way they actually occurred? Do producers thing that stories are too plain and need to embellish them in the name of "good storytelling"?

I've read of some fantastic stories of the War Between the States and many other instances in history that would make GREAT movies if they were told with attention to thoroughness and accuracy.

Such a shame. Oh well. -Johnny

[BillO'Dea]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

If i had checked out the National Geographic link first I might not of posted as it sites Asbury's book, Still I enjoyed reading Gangs even if some of his facts are questionable and perhaps repeating urban myths of the time. I had read it awhile back and had egarly antipated Scorsese's take on it, and had been facinated with the whole Draft riot story. But as much as i enjoyed Daniel Day Lewis as Butcher Bill it was a disappointment over all. But still every once in a while I watch it again, as it is a fun movie.
LOL... if i had looked over my book self more closely I might of mentioned Anbinder's Five Points too.
I also owe some of my interest in this period of the Apples history to Marc's The Daybreak B'hoys site.
One of the better times I had was last March 17 when we took a guided tour of what used to be the Fve Points just before marching in the St Pat's parade

Being a history film buff I don't feel this thread is waste by the way. There's a neat book called The Reel Civil War: Mythmaking in American Film by Bruce Chadwick that's worth checking out
Bill O'Dea
Salt Boilers mess
122nd NY

[Gary of CA]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

I enjoyed Wicked Springs and thought the weapons and clothing were more plausible than the story line which was good until near the end when they started pointed their guns at each other.

BTW, until a few years ago, everything I knew about gunsmithing, personal hygiene, dinner manners, gunfighting, religion, interrogation techniques and the Civil War came from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

I should've just put a page on the Daybreaks site about the film...sometimes, I don't know where to begin to address it.

SO much stuff is skewed, compressed, and taken out of chronology and geography in that movie.

Remember Scorsese's own comment on the film: "it's an opera." Think of it as that, and you'll be fine. It is not a documentary, and treads dangerously at the level of "historical fiction."

From the standpoint of material culture as far as militaria is concerned, it doesn't belong on this board. For the civilian end of things, it's barely better. For the amount of research they did, they misinterpreted a lot. The fire scene utilizes items based on the NYC Fire Museum collection during the time when I volunteered there, but they're either from the wrong era or utilized improperly.

"Opera," though, "opera!"

Asbury's book is frustratingly devoid of good citations, and is full of holes. Tyler Anbinder's recent work on the Five Points is an overwhelmingly better (that is to say, better documented) scholarly work.

Bombardment didn't happen. The "Ironclad Passaic," which is mentioned by name but not shown, was being overhauled at the time. The "Gunboat Liberty?" Far as I can find, no such vessel existed.

The Chinese influence on New York City was nowhere near as pronounced during the Civil War, this again being one of the aspects of the neighborhood they pulled from a different (later) decade.

The "caves of Vicksburg" aspect to this movie puzzles me, too. No explanation.

The assembly line recruitment at the docks? So much for all those mustering-in camps on Staten Island.

Tweed was long-gone from the Foreman slot at Big Six by the time of the Civil War...and the company was not located in Five Points; several other companies were on the "first-due card," as it were. "Black Joke" Engine 33 is even less plausible, as they were located way the heck uptown. The barrel-over-the-hydrant trick, however, is totally documented and a good touch.

[BillO'Dea]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

I'd recommend picking up the book The Gangs Of New York An Informal History of the Underworld by Herbert Asbury, written in 1928 it was re-issued when the movie came out. Much of what the movie is based on comes from it. Although the time frame of actual people and events are condensed, Hell Cat Maggie included,
"The Dead Rabbits, during the early forties, commanded the allegiance of the most noted of the female battlers, an angular vixen known as Hell Cat Maggie, who fought along side the gang chieftains in many of the great battles with the Bowery gangs, She is said to have filed her front teeth to points, while on her fingers she wore long artificial nails, constructed of brass. When Hell Cat Maggie screeched her battle cry and rushed biting and clawing into the midst of a mass of opposing gangsters, even the most stout hearted blanched and fled."
And no during the Draft riots of 63 the Navy did not fire on NY city
for a good read about that see The New York Draft Riots Their Significance for American Society and Politics in the Age of the Civil War by Iver Bernstien 1990
Bill O'Dea
Salt-Boilers mess
122nd NY

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Best Civil War films (or rather, the lack thereof)...

Well, I wouldn't say it's a waste, but it certainly has been played out.

Aw, guys... that's why this is "The Sinks"... every subject gets played out here eventually anyway... somtimes sooner than later.

Couldn't resist... LOL :D

-Johnny Lloyd