Drawing Rammers

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Drawing Rammers

Just a couple more comments. Here's another look at an experiment with firing ramrods: http://claudesinclair.com/Palmetto-Batallion/ramrod.pdf

Also, if you're having problems getting the first shot to fire after just pouring powder you have other options besides ramming or slamming the butt on the ground. One is to lightly tap the breech to seat the powder. Another is to ask yourself a few questions. A dirty barrel will interfere with firing, as will a build up of fouling in the vent or simply excess oil in the barrel after cleaning. If you have to ram to get the first shot off, don't automatically assume that it comes from the practice of loading loose powder. I can't be the only one who hasn't had a problem with this.

[Captmort11th]

Re: Drawing Rammers

Doug,
Some examples please. I am part of a mainstream unit, I come here to learn and teach my unit what I learn here. Can you give an example of what you mean? Especially when it comes to firing. Im part of the USV, and we hold our members to a high safety standard.
Thank you
Respectfully
John Mort

[Matthew Joe Mallory]

Re: Drawing Rammers

Doug,
Some examples please. I am part of a mainstream unit, I come here to learn and teach my unit what I learn here. Can you give an example of what you mean? Especially when it comes to firing. Im part of the USV, and we hold our members to a high safety standard.
Thank you
Respectfully
John Mort

I realize that this was addressed to Mr. Cooper, but I am compelled to offer an example as well. I have seen inaccurate loading in which the muzzle is too close to either the loader, or the people around him/her (all the while believing that they're following Hardee's 1855). I have seen people load with too much powder. I have seen people double or triple load their muskets with those cartridges full of too much powder. I have seen people use wonder wads in pistols. I have seen people shoot in a direct fire in less than 10 yards (one was even less than four feet away from my Corporal's head. Thankfully he ducked just in time). I have seen people drinking before going off to battle. I've seen too much, and I no longer participate in battles with the units that I have seen do most of these things.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Drawing Rammers

It sounds like they would benefit from spending some time drilling at the nearest NPS unit. All personal weapons are inspected beforehand. All powder is provided by the rangers, but they let volunteers help roll the musket cartridges. Don't hold the barrel at the right angle while loading, and you lose the musket. A misfire not corrected by two additional caps means the musket gets removed from the line for the rest of the event, regardless of whether or not it is a NPS musket or a personal musket. And no alcohol at any events between the hours of midnight and 5:00 PM, or else the nice law enforcement ranger will escort you to the property line, and arrest you if you try to return.

[thomas aagaard]

Re: Drawing Rammers

Agreed Sue, it is a US- driven oddity. Use of ramrods is the norm in both the Sealed Knot and Napoleonic Association in UK and Napoleonic reenactment Europe-wide.

And reenactment of the 1866 war between Austria and prussia.

The same for fixed bayonets.



The groups doing ACW in Denmark and sweden on the other hand don't draw rammers and they/we are in no way drilled to a standard where it would be a good idea.
(I spend two years trying to improve the drill as a 1st sergeant... then gave up)

[Matthew Joe Mallory]

Re: Drawing Rammers

It sounds like they would benefit from spending some time drilling at the nearest NPS unit. All personal weapons are inspected beforehand. All powder is provided by the rangers, but they let volunteers help roll the musket cartridges. Don't hold the barrel at the right angle while loading, and you lose the musket. A misfire not corrected by two additional caps means the musket gets removed from the line for the rest of the event, regardless of whether or not it is a NPS musket or a personal musket. And no alcohol at any events between the hours of midnight and 5:00 PM, or else the nice law enforcement ranger will escort you to the property line, and arrest you if you try to return.

I agree. Sadly many of these people think they're the "safest" units because they have a lot of "rules" such as not drawing rammers. As Mr. Aagaard pointed out, you can try to improve their drill only so much before you eventually give up.

[Captmort11th]

Re: Drawing Rammers

Thank you for the input Matthew. I have seen that as well. Thankfully not in my unit. Unfortunately "Careless Joe" as Silas says is in many groups. The small unknown events are sadly where I see most of the ignorant, careless and dangerous actions. I hope that what I learn and can teach will make us all better.

- - - Updated - - -

A couple questions Matthew. How many grains of powder do you use in your units? Our MAX in the USV is 60 grains. And what do you use for pistols? Wonder wads are banned in the USV, I have seem cream of wheat used.

Thank you
John

[Matthew Joe Mallory]

Re: Drawing Rammers

Thank you for the input Matthew. I have seen that as well. Thankfully not in my unit. Unfortunately "Careless Joe" as Silas says is in many groups. The small unknown events are sadly where I see most of the ignorant, careless and dangerous actions. I hope that what I learn and can teach will make us all better.

- - - Updated - - -

A couple questions Matthew. How many grains of powder do you use in your units? Our MAX in the USV is 60 grains. And what do you use for pistols? Wonder wads are banned in the USV, I have seem cream of wheat used.

Thank you
John

In my unit we use 60 grains of powder. At this time no one in my unit carries a pistol. I find that I don't end up using it much. When I did carry a pistol, I used cream of wheat. I cannot remember the grains of powder I used for pistols. I want to say it is about 25 grains, but I'm not certain. I has been quite a while.

Wonder wads are supposed to be banned here as well, and in my unit it certainly is.

[cairnsy44]

Re: Drawing Rammers

I voted no, mostly because of my fear of others. But I certainly perfer drawing the ramrod. There is a reason it feels like you are missing a step in the process, because you are.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Drawing Rammers

I told some of my NPS volunteer friends about an upcoming mainstream event, and they gave me weird looks when I told them about the No Rammers rule. As though I was speaking in a foreign language, it took them a few seconds to process what I was saying. When use to doing it correctly, it feels weird to do it wrong.

[DougCooper]

Re: Drawing Rammers

Its about risk.

John - just to let you know my background and how I think - career military officer and aviation safety officer, so deal in the world of attention to detail, constant repetition of action under stress and the effects when a single missing step (or individual work around) can lead to catastrophic endings.

The original manuals for civil war soldiers were drilled relentlessly, exactly as written, until a level of expertise was developed far beyond what most of us experience today. Then, and only then, did commanders direct short cuts in procedures under fire as circumstances allowed with acceptable risk. The soldiers and their officers had confidence enough to do what they had to do. Train like you fight, yada yada.

Today, we invent what we think are safe procedures in the mistaken belief that the original drill was too dangerous. We even have procedures drawn up that become reenactorisms...until Silas or Dom or John punctures them with the correct procedures. Some examples are not using rammers...pounding the weapon on the ground because you aren't using rammers...standing only 30 feet from an opposing line and direct firing (hey, what's the problem, we aren't using rammers?) and so on. If you leave out 3 steps in the loading process...and add a dangerous one...eventually some genius thinks of something else to add or leave out and safety is furthered compromised....and authenticity is lost if your goal is showing the public what the process looked like on an NPS battlefield.

As Matthew mentions - once you make one compromise, you get many, its human nature.

Silas didn't discover that we were going over the wrong shoulder in left oblique aim just because using the other shoulder just seems funny...but also because the army would have taken the safe course, as they did everything else in a dangerous occupation where so much was out of their control.

A good example of adding risk to the process is a step invented by the mainstream governing body of CW reenactors out here in the Pacific Northwest. They don't use rammers, but the direct firing distance minimum is only 30 feet (if that). They invented a step in the firing sequence where they go to full cock only once they bring the rifle up to aim (not at the ready). Why? Because its safer they say...and you get the ludicrous display of folks trying to go to full cock with hammer next to their eyes and barrels swinging to and fro...instead of what the army understood was the smart way, with the unit ready to fire once they came to aim.

Fix the errors in individual drill to control what you can to be safe, don't invent a bogus step or leave out an important step(s) in the mistaken belief we are smarter than Gen Hardee, Gen Casey, and 10 million or so soldiers. Too risky.

[Captmort11th]

Re: Drawing Rammers

Well said Doug. Thank you!