determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

[Micaila]

Before I start, I'd like to apologize if this inappropriate, or in the wrong folder.

I am looking for a a chart or guide to determining color in cdv's, tintypes and B&W photos. I know I've seen it online and probably even have a printout filed away somewhere, but we've just completed a cross-country move I honestly don't know where anything is right now. If anyone could point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks again,
Micaila

[ElizabethClark]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

Micaila, it's a perfectly valid question. :) We had a fantastic discussion on it this past spring, which was lost in the Great Crash of Ought Six, which is a pity. I have moved the discussion aspect of this thread over to the Citizen's Authenticity Discussion folder--which in no way should discourage military folks from joining the conversation!

If you want to have physical copies, Virginia Mescher published a great comparison article in The Citizen's Companion several years ago. I know one of the many projects on Mrs. Mescher's to-do list that she has mentioned in the past is to obtain permissions to publish a few of the images from that study on-line at her site (the owner of the copyright on one of the color cards photographed would not initially give that permission.)

Ashe Middleton used to host Kathleen Lowe's color comparison images on her site, but it seems to be removed from the web; I'll be adding Kathleen's images (with her permission) to my own site during this week, so it will once again be freely available on-line.

[Spinster]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

While we are waiting for the charts to come up, here are some examples of known items. This image was taken at Shaker Village in 2004, Mrs. Willis, AKA "Sister" is on the left, and I am on the right.

Mrs. Willis is wearing a light blue dress with a black swirl figure and a red center to the figure (showing up as little squares). Her collar and cuffs are white. Her hair is blond. The striped ribbon on her headpiece is shades of pastel. Her apron is black and taupe plaid. Socks on the right, in her hands are red, socks on the left are medium blue.
The striped hat on her apron has a yellow cuff and blue stripes. The tam in the basket is yellow and blue--with the dark stripes being the yellow part and the light stripes being the blue.

Most startling was the effect of her face--she had recently lost most than 100 pounds--while her high Indian cheekbones were not evident to our eyes, they were very evident to the camera lense. The effect did not show to our eyes for another 30 pounds.


On the right, my dress is a bright whanging yellow with a turkey red stripe ( that faint line you see), with white collar and cuffs. My hair is light brown, and the ribbon on my headpiece is shaded from pinks to dark green. The knitting in my lap is a natural sheep grey. Socks in the basket are shades of blue.

Bricks behind us are a medium red. The door and knob are both white, and the steps and foundations are limestone with some mildew discoloration.

[Diochra]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

My historical website was lost to the Web in October, during my own Web Host Switch Snafu. Bummer. (I still have it on my hard drive, but it's undergoing some changes, at a snail's pace.) :D

[ElizabethClark]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

Big bummer! I'll look forward to seeing you reload things. It'll be a small addition on our site--might as well have it in two easily-accessible spots, just for sensible redundancy. :) I hope you still have the notes from the last photography color discussion here?

[Amy Denison]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

Wow Spinster, thank you very much for the image and color descriptions. I was most surprised to find out that the dark stripes on that tam are yellow!

I think it would be interesting to take a wetplate image of several different colors of fabrics, in different fibers and weaves. I wonder, for instance, if blue silk would photograph similar to blue wool or cotton of the same shade.

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

I think it would be interesting to take a wetplate image of several different colors of fabrics, in different fibers and weaves. I wonder, for instance, if blue silk would photograph similar to blue wool or cotton of the same shade.

Amy,

I hope to be putting up an article on the colors of cdv's on our website soon. A number of years ago, I had done one for Citizens' Companion, complete with color swatches of both print and solid fabric and the wet plate images of both but that issue has long been out of print.

We also have a wet plate image of my husband and my self (don't let us scare you away) on our web site and the colors are explained there. It is in the "About Us and Picture" section.

I'm in the process of updating my information and will be including additional color swatches and a color wheel with images in color, wet plate, and black and white so that the reader can compare the three variations.

In short, red, yellow, orange, and green will photograph as a dark color and blues will photograph as a lighter color. The shade will depend upon on how much light is absorbed by the image when it is photographed. Both weaves and texture may play a part in how a color will photograph but with blue, most will photograph as a light, almost white or light gray color. These are just a rule of thumb statements and until an image is taken with a wet plate camera and the image is developed, one never know how the colors will be affected. Although I'm not a photographer, I tried to explain the process in the article.

I do apologize for takiing so long to get the article up on the web page but finding the photographer and the extra money to have to wet plates done added to the delay. Hopefully, after the first of the year, I'll have the time to revise the first article and at least get the text up and some of the images. I can always add additional images as I get the photographs done.

[Spinster]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

Amy, those dark tam stripes are a bright clear yellow. Note too that my 'grey striped ' dress was a bright yellow tending towards mustard.

I'm on an extended Christmas road trip--when I get home, I'll hunt the picuture of the yellow dress, as well as our yellow peddleing wagon that also images as steel gray.

[ephraim_zook]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

Ladies & Gents,

I think these are the colour wheel illustrations in question. I had made some comments which got added to someone's website along with these illustrations. The short version of the commentary is that early photosensitive materials and photographic emulsions were sensitive to the blue wavelengths of light almost exclusively. Because of this, blue objects reproduced much lighter in shade than we find when using modern black & white films while complementary colours -- colours on the opposite side of the colour wheel from blue, reproduce much darker.

The center illustration is modern black & white film; the one on the right is an early emulsion.

Ron Myzie

[ElizabethClark]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

In the interests of documentation and copyright niceties, the triptych of images above were taken by Kathleen Lowe, a wetplate photographer who once worked from Utah. She has expressed her permission to share the images on-line free of charge, for educational and research purposes. (They should not be used or published as part of an article to a magazine, etc, however.)

[Micaila]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

Ah yes, This was the chart I recalled.
Knew I had seen it somewhere. Thanks so much for posting this.
~Micaila

[ephraim_zook]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

Mrs Clark,

Thank you so much. I'd long ago forgotten from whose website they came. I had copies on my hard drive which I use in my photography classes. I did recall permission given for educational purposes. I remember that the original website died and there was a link here on the AC Forum to these images posted elsewhere, which it where my little "lesson" on early photosensitive materials ended up.

thanx again
Ron Myzie

[ElizabethClark]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

It's one of those "growing collaborative" efforts at this point. :) Kathleen is a lovely person, and though she didn't want to maintain an entire website forever, she's been very gracious in letting others use her images for educational purposes.

I'm very much looking forward to the ongoing project from the Meschers, as well--theirs has even wider-ranging usefulness, as they had color charts and actual fabrics, so more of the variable factors were touched on.

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

Just remembering this conversation when I stumbled on this: http://cgi.ebay.com/TINTED-AMBROTYPE...QQcmdZViewItem

[Ambrotypist]

Re: determining color in cdv's, tintypes and b&w photos

I would be willing to make a 1/2 plate Ambrotype of A Color/Fabric Chart gratis if someone is willing to send me two of the exact same Color/Fabric Chart ,one to copy and send back with the Plate and one to keep myself.
After ten years of Wet Plate work I can state that I still have trouble knowing how a color will translate in a Wet Plate Photograph,there are so many variables.
Respectfully,
Tim Parson
Bowling Green, Ky