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"Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

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  • "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

    Defend This Old Town: Williamsburg During the Civil War.
    By Carol Kettenburg Dubbs

    "Rumors of War" (abridged) (pg. 61-63)

    Louisiana boys were not about to let Mardi Gras pass unnoticed, and if they could not be in New Orleans for the festival, they would bring the festival to Williamsburg. With the help of the community, the Dreux Battalion fashioned decorations and confetti from flour balls.

    "Oh! we are going to have grand doings in town tomorrow night," Page wrote Lizzie on 3 March, "Dreux Battalion will celebrate Mardi Gras."

    "Oh! my dearest Lizzie, how shall I begin to tell you about yesterday," Page continued her epistle on 5 March, "it was the most glorious & charming day, the whole of it, from the morning until nearly one o'clock at night, that I ever spent."
    She regretted Lizzie and Colonel Munford's daughters, Sallie and Maria, also in Richmond, missed the "carnival," for "everybody in the city of Wmsburg turned out." Rebecca Ewell joined the Saunders family for a picnic, where Page drank four glass of champagne. Then "some two hundred New Orleans boys got up a wonderful procession, rigged out in as fantastic a manner as it was possible to accomplish," one participant recalled years later.

    "About eight o'clock the procession entered town, all dressed in the most ridiculous style; some were dressed like devils, some as clowns, some as ladies, goats, some as horses & standing up," Page detailed in her missive.

    "Mr. Copland was a devil or an imp, I don't know which, as he passed us he kissed his hand to me several times. The street was as bright as day, with the torch lights, the procession went up & down town twice, there was a large wagon filled with gentlemen dressed up to look like servants, they were all musicians."
    At the close of the parade, townspeople gathered on Courthouse Green to listen to two "very smart & amusing" speakers, while Magruder and his staff, who had come to Williamsburg for the occasion, adjourned to the City Hotel. There they were entertained by members of the Dreux Battalion, one named Billy Campbell convincingly disguised as a young girl.

    "Magruder, with that gallantry which always characterized him, placed 'Miss' Campbell on his right hand, who partook liberally of everything that was going, including the liquors," a Louisianan recounted. "How far this thing would have gone on it is difficult to say, had not some of the boys ripped up a feather bed belonging to the landlord of the hotel and permitted its contents to fall through an aperture immediately above the dining room, calling out a the same time: 'This is a Louisiana snowstorm.' " The diversion allowed Campbell to escape, leaving a bewildered "Prince John" standing amid the feathers.
    "I did have a charming time," Page confided to Lizzie. "I fell in love at least five times." She found the most of the gentlemen still in their masquerades -- a Greek with "a perfect Grecian face," an Indian whose painted face could not conceal "how handsome he was," and "a Prince of olden times" who "desired to be remembered to your ladyship." Then there was "Mr Campbell, he was a lady & he looked perfectly lovely, he is only seventeen, poor little fellow!" Page declared.
    Though Dr. Galt pronounced it "a fine exhibition of Mardi Gras," others argued that such "jollification" would never have been permitted had the troops not been so demoralized.
    Jason C. Spellman
    Skillygalee Mess

    "Those fine fellows in Virginia are pouring out their heart's blood like water. Virginia will be heroic dust--the army of glorious youth that has been buried there."--Mary Chesnut

  • #2
    Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

    Originally posted by Shockoe Hill Cats View Post
    Though Dr. Galt pronounced it "a fine exhibition of Mardi Gras," others argued that such "jollification" would never have been permitted had the troops not been so demoralized.
    That's a name I recognize! That was probably Dr. John Minson Galt who was head of the Eastern Lunatic Asylum in Williamsburg, and was/is known for humane and progressive treatment of the insane. He'd be dead in two months, after the battle of Williamsburg when his beloved asylum was taken over and he was ousted from control. His death was either an accidental or deliberate overdose of laudanum.

    Hank Trent
    hanktrent@gmail.com
    Hank Trent

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

      Mardi Grad heureux pour tout le monde d'aujourd'hui!
      Nic Clark
      2017 - 24 years in the hobby
      Proud co-founder of the Butcherknife Roughnecks

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

        Originally posted by Dale Beasley
        Actually the term "Who Dat" began with the 2nd Company of the Louisiana Tigers, which was founded at St Johns Catholic School in the Up-Town area. When calling a cheer, instead of the Huzzah, they would yell a "Who -Dat"...
        Without any documentation for your statement it falls into the No Farbism category of the forum rules. Do not post it again without being able to back it up.
        Last edited by JimKindred; 02-18-2010, 07:38 AM.
        Jim Kindred

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

          Hallo!

          Just an aside...

          One of the most recent rebuildings in "Colonial Williamsburg" is the "asylum."
          I was there in December.

          Curt
          Curt Schmidt
          In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

          -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
          -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
          -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
          -Vastly Ignorant
          -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

            Have they let you out on a pass, or have the good doctors at the asylum released you unconditionally?

            - Silas Tackitt
            Silas Tackitt,
            one of the moderators.

            Click here for a link to forum rules - or don't at your own peril.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

              Hallo!

              It is far easier for the sane man to act the lunatic, than for the lunatic to act the sane man.

              :)

              The recreated mental hospital, built on/over the foundation ruins of the original is set up to the latest of modern museum display and interpertation theory- so I was easily able to get in and get out.

              :)

              Curt
              Lycanthropy, er Chameleon Mess
              Curt Schmidt
              In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

              -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
              -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
              -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
              -Vastly Ignorant
              -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

                Ahem Ahem...
                So then maybe someone will want to pitch in and help write some editorials and the trust about the Williamsburg Battlefield issue... (see the preservation folder)
                Drew

                "God knows, as many posts as go up on this site everyday, there's plenty of folks who know how to type. Put those keyboards to work on a real issue that's tied to the history that we love and obsess over so much." F.B.

                "...mow hay, cut wood, prepare great food, drink schwitzel, knit, sew, spin wool, rock out to a good pinch of snuff and somehow still find time to go fly a kite." N.B.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

                  My Dear Mr Kendryed,

                  I am please to let you now that the research is near complete on the origin of the term "Who Dat", it seems to have been originally coined in a minstrel (spelled right?) song, that was played in bars in New Orleans, during the beginning of the Civil War.

                  I sincerely regret, and seeing how you are not from this area, I can understand, that you first thought it was simply a modern farb term.

                  More to follow

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

                    Hallo!

                    While a more "civilian" thing, IMHO, the new mental hospital reconstruction at Williamsburg is a worthwhile and interesting window into the abysmal state of 18th and 19th century mental health "treatment."

                    Curt
                    Curt Schmidt
                    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                    -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                    -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                    -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                    -Vastly Ignorant
                    -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

                      Originally posted by Dale Beasley View Post
                      My Dear Mr Kendryed,

                      I am please to let you now that the research is near complete on the origin of the term "Who Dat", it seems to have been originally coined in a minstrel (spelled right?) song, that was played in bars in New Orleans, during the beginning of the Civil War.

                      I sincerely regret, and seeing how you are not from this area, I can understand, that you first thought it was simply a modern farb term.

                      More to follow
                      Moderator Comment:

                      Beasley, your condescending attitude toward a moderator's request for documentation will only earn you a suspended account. We are not putting up with such any longer, if you do not believe me test the system and find out. I have already suspended one account this morning, one more will not make any difference.
                      Jim Kindred

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

                        Kindred

                        1854, Edwin Christy, "Who's Dat Knocking at the Door?":
                        "De bulgine scared me so I tought I was no more,
                        An I run so hard aginst de house, my head went through the door."

                        [/B]Good Day.
                        Last edited by Dale Beasley; 02-21-2010, 01:01 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dale Beasley
                          "Who Dat" [ ] seems to have been originally coined in a minstrel (spelled right?) song, that was played in bars in New Orleans, during the beginning of the Civil War.
                          Originally posted by Dale Beasley
                          1854, Edwin Christy, "Who's Dat Knocking at the Door?":
                          "De bulgine scared me so I tought I was no more,
                          An I run so hard aginst de house, my head went through the door."
                          Considering that this Philadelphia born musician and his Christy Minstrels performed exclusively at Mechanic's Hall in New York City from 1847 to 1854 and considering that Christy retired in 1855, your original comment seems to be quite a stretch. Based on the research you've so far presented, I'd say that New York has a stronger claim to Who Dat than New Orleans.

                          Said tune is found in the Briggs Banjo Instructor (1855). Considering that Briggs died in California that year and San Francisco had several theaters which played minstrel, I suppose San Francisco could lay as much claim to Who Dat as New Orleans or New York.

                          Since it's readily available, here's Tim Twiss playing the song :



                          I had thought you may have been writing about A.F. Winnemore's 1843 tune, Stop Dat Knocking, because of the who dat, who dat, who dat, who dat knockin' at de door refrain. This tune can be found in several songbooks of the 1850's but seems to have run out of steam by the 1860's.
                          Silas Tackitt,
                          one of the moderators.

                          Click here for a link to forum rules - or don't at your own peril.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

                            Silas,
                            You may have a point about New York having the original claim. Please don't tell anyone south of Jackson, Mississippi. With the NFL issue that has been much research done on the subject. It made it's way to the Soldiers of the Civil War as per a Southern Physician who wrote on the subject. The Minstrel Show that we now speak of was played in numerous playhouses in the New Orleans Area, frequented by many Soldiers either from New Orleans or coming threw New Orleans.

                            And when you think about it, it makes perfect sense. If you have ever served with Real-Troops you know they will pick up phrases, sayings, etc. For example, when I served in Iraqi Freedom the big sayings were "Who's Ya Daddy, and "Who's Yo Baghdaddy". You and I both know that "Who's your Daddy" was made very popular several years ago by a Country Music singer who I cannot recall his name, at this time.

                            I have had to use a modern day phrase /anachronism to explain a Civil War Soldiers phrase. I hope Kindred will overlook this.
                            Last edited by Dale Beasley; 02-21-2010, 09:47 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: "Fat Tuesday" in Williamsburg 148 yrs. ago...

                              Originally posted by Silas View Post
                              I had thought you may have been writing about A.F. Winnemore's 1843 tune, Stop Dat Knocking, because of the who dat, who dat, who dat, who dat knockin' at de door refrain. This tune can be found in several songbooks of the 1850's but seems to have run out of steam by the 1860's.
                              That's what I thought too. The simple phrase "Who dat" as a spoken question or part of a larger sentence appeared all over as basic minstrel/negro dialect in the antebellum era, like many other ungrammatical/mispronounced versions of normal speech, so for there to be any significance to it, one would need to find it chanted or shouted or somehow emphasized.

                              For example, where's the evidence for this, or was it supposed to be some kind of satire and not be taken seriously?

                              Actually the term "Who Dat" began with the 2nd Company of the Louisiana Tigers, which was founded at St Johns Catholic School in the Up-Town area. When calling a cheer, instead of the Huzzah, they would yell a "Who -Dat"...
                              Wikipedia actually has a decent article on the development of "who dat" in the 20th century up to a football chant, if one is interested in that kind of thing, but it misses 19th century uses such as in "Stop Dat Knocking."

                              I can remember my father (born 1930) using the "who dat?/who dat say who dat?" catch phrase, as well as "who dat up there say who dat down there." But was that part of typical minstrel shows in the antebellum era or was it developed in early 20th century minstrel shows from his generation? I can't seem to find usage of it in the 19th century yet.

                              Edited to add: we were cross-posting, but my questions stand. If it weren't for modern people's obsession with 21st century football, would the phrase have any particular significance to the average person in the 19th century, beyond the chorus of an obscure song?

                              Hank Trent
                              hanktrent@gmail.com
                              Last edited by Hank Trent; 02-21-2010, 09:44 AM.
                              Hank Trent

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