Rebel Songs in Federal Camp

[yeoman]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Sir, not to get off topic or side step your question, but, would not Stephen Fosters music fit into camp as the tunes were so memorable? Surely the men knew Fosters songs from their youth, "Oh, Susanna" 1848, "Camptown Races" 1850, "Jeanie with the Light Brown Hair" 1854 and many more.

http://stephen-foster-songs.de/index.htm

[Salt Pork]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

I just wanted to add a point about Bobby Horton, as a fan of historical music. In my humble opinion He does have some great songs that are period correct(even though they are played on modern intstrements), however some of his works, works i.e. the yellow rose of texas (lyrics speak about hood after franklin and finding uncle joe in Georgia) and Good old Rebel(Which talks about resentment of the Fedreal goverment during reconstruction) both of his 1985 CSA Album are clearly post antibellum and would not be correct for our time period.

Salt Pork William Summe

[BenjaminLDavis]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Music can enhance or shatter the period feel in camp ~ I remember, some years
back, standing picket duty not far from camp, and hearing, from fellers who knew
how to sing, "Just Before The Battle, Mother," in harmony, drifting over from camp.
It was great!! I was there!!
Then, later, I joined these men in song ~ they broke into "Lay Down Your Head,
Tom Dooley" ( the 1950/60s folk version ) and my period moment was shattered.
Took me right out of it. I sat quiet for that one. And I should have spoken up, but
did not.

Which is what this forum is all about. Do some research, ask your pards.
Talk to the people in the hobby that know this stuff backwards and forwards,
they will steer you right. But ask before you sing.

In this vein, I have a question: would Barbara Allen still be popular at the time
of the War? I have seen in print that it was Lincoln's mother's favorite tune ~
would the soldiers still have sung it round the fire? I cannot find it mentioned in
any of my books as a popular song of the era. And if it was not, I will not take
the trouble to learn it.
Help me out if you have knowledge of this. Thanks.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

I just wanted to add a point about Bobby Horton, as a fan of historical music. In my humble opinion He does have some great songs that are period correct(even though they are played on modern intstrements), however some of his works, works i.e. the yellow rose of texas (lyrics speak about hood after franklin and finding uncle joe in Georgia) and Good old Rebel(Which talks about resentment of the Fedreal goverment during reconstruction) both of his 1985 CSA Album are clearly post antibellum and would not be correct for our time period.

Salt Pork William Summe

Great points...the liner notes address those chronology issues as well.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Barbara Allen was first published in the United States in 1836.

Folks I talk with tend to think of published sheet music in modern terms. You don't see or know too much about it if you're not a serious musician. Most modern recorded music is passed around by musicians by ear and repetitive listening...for the most part today.

My research has shown, in the period and prior to the advent of recorded music published sheet music was viewed as a new CD is today. Widely sold and anxiously awaited as means of home and other musicians to learn and experience new tunes.

In that light and knowing the widespread popularity, publication and distribution of Barbara Allen, I would say IMHO, yes it would be appropriate. But I will add that there are so many other martial and CW related tunes that the truest disservice is to let those go unshared with folks to opt instead for pursuit of the "leopard skin trousers"

[Hank Trent]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

I'm curious if anyone has studied one possible source for seeing what folk or traditional songs that were popular: the tunes used when people wrote new words.

Seems the whole point of writing new words to an old tune is that most people know the old tune so they don't need to learn a new one. The zillions of versions of "The Girl I Left Behind Me" certainly show it was well known, and "Annie Laurie" or "Wait for the Wagon" too. But has anyone studied the wider range of recycled tunes, as a way of gauging what older songs must have been well known? It seems that half the time when I see printed words meant to be sung to the tune of ____, it's a tune I've never heard of, yet surely that wasn't the case then.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Danny]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

...For slave spirituals I already gave you a source -- Thomas Wentworth Higginson's Army Life in a Black Regiment, and war time articles in The Atlantic... Both of these are standard works, and the fact that you seem to know nothing about them speaks volumes for your own expertise in the subject... I suggest you begin in the standard literature...I mean, would it kill you to look something up?

Michael -

? Totally unfounded, friend. I absolutely already had the Higginson reference, had read the Atlantic material. Do you have a copy of the the "standard" reference "Slave Songs of the United States", the 1867 Anthology. William Francis Allen, Charles Pickard Ware, Lucy McKim Garrison? That has first hand accounts of spirituals sung during the war. You might try also "African-American traditions in song, sermon, tale, and dance, 1600s-1920" By Eileen Southern, Josephine Wright...and there are others I have on the topic.

As you can tell, I'm open about asking for material that I DON'T have, so again thanks for the German unit reference, I didn't have that.

Dan Wykes

[Danny]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

...It seems to me that if we stick to music professionally published before and during the war years, we as a group are missing out on a wealth of music.

Bob -

Then we will have to miss out on a wealth of music. I don't know the answer, can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think the standard here is that without documentation a particular song was actually sung by a soldier or a unit, we don't sing it.

Or, is the standard that if it's documented the song was available, even without documentation it was actually sung by a soldier or unit, it's ok to sing it?

And to follow on, is it correct to say it's sub standard when we only reason that the music was likely available based on the subject in the song or related facts? Is "Likely" only an excuse?

This last category, unfortunately, is where many fine traditional and folk tunes reside: chantys, spirituals, work songs, Spanish folk etc. -- any song in which there was no profit in publishing either because it was known only in the niche it came from or because it was widely known and sung in aural tradition, there being no market for the sheet music.

Music researchers have shown how gregarious music was in the 19th century United States, but for our purposes it's still considered FARBY that a soldier would sing a sailor's chanty or a negro spiritual (even if they were published). Soldiers are not sailors (well, ok, some of them had been) or slaves (well, ok, a lot of them had been). Then again, I sometimes wonder, is it more fake not to sing folk and traditional songs?

After all said, songs were not government issue so can't be judged by the same criterion as our kits.

Dan Wykes

[Silas]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Here's a link to the precursor to Good Ol' Rebel, Joe Bowers : http://www.manifest-history.org/Cali.../JoeBowers.htm

Thanks to Troy for posting all of the lyrics that he has.

A more throughly folked song is Yankee Doodle. On my current songster, I've got two versions. One is Jim Jawbone (1861) and the other is General Butler (mid-war).

The beginning of Jim Jawbone is :

Jim Jawbone was a color'd man,
Ob de true n____ blood, sah,
In old Virginny he did grow,
Among de 'bacca buds, sah.

His fader cum from Alabam,
His moder cum from Guinea,
Dey suckled little Jawbone wid
De leaf ob ole Virginny.

The chorus of General Butler is :

Come throw your swords and muskets down,
You do not find them handy ;
Although we Yankees cannot fight,
At running we're the dandy.

You find old songs with great lyrics by going through old songsters which are posted online.

An overlooked song today which was frequently altered is Ephraim's Lament. I've seen several different versions in songsters and sheet music. One version from late '62 is a rendition which is pretty much a listing of U.S. generals and how great they are. Ephraim's Lament is a great song to play.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Bob -

Then we will have to miss out on a wealth of music. I don't know the answer, can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think the standard here is that without documentation a particular song was actually sung by a soldier or a unit, we don't sing it.

I don't know what the Forum's standard is, but my personal standard is that we be able to document a song to the United States during the period of the war. We have tremendous resources available for doing this online, including letters, journals, press articles, and e-books, so there's no excuse not to try.

We also know that the United States during this period was a literate society, with a large majority of the white population able to read and write, with a widespread popular press, machine-manufactured paper, steel pens, a national postal service, and other means of communication. So asking for this level of documentation is not asking for too much.

Beyond that, I don't understand why you would waste energy arguing why a song could have been sung during the war, despite an absence of documentation, when there are countless under-used songs that we know were available and sung -- a verifiable "wealth" that probably exceeds the ability of any one of us to fully exploit.

The basic question is whether this hobby is about what history actually was, or simply what you want it to have been.

[JimKindred]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

I don't know what the Forum's standard is, but my personal standard is that we be able to document a song to the United States during the period of the war.

The above is essentially the forum standard, if a song cannot be documented to the Civil War period it does not need to be discussed here. To make this crystal clear, that leaves out "what could have been", "I think", "I suppose" or any other excuse for a lack of documentation an individual may come up with.

The moderators have received a number of complaints originating in this folder, more so than any other folder on the forum and we are tired of it. If a poster cannot stick to the documented Civil War period they do not need to post in this folder. Should this continue moderator action to stop it will be taken. This is not up to debate.

[Danny]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Moderations noted and appreciated, thanks.

"Frank B. Converse's Banjo Instructor without a Master" (New York, Dick & Fitzgerald) is a handy little manual, which will be useful at camp-fires, and where-ever the boys incline to sing and dance. 96 pp.Vol. IV, United States Service Magazine, p. 165 (July, 1865).

Mark - I had never before seen any war-period (end-of-war anyway) reference on banjo tutors relating to soldiers so I appreciate your posting the clip. (btw Welcome to the Banjo Ning).

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[Silas]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Danny,

You're jumping to an unsupported conclusion about the use of Converse or any other manual in the field. I posted verbage from an interesting advertisement I noticed while rummaging through old books. Nothing more ; nothing less.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Silas

Danny has had argument about the "banjo tutors" from day one......its his way of sliding something in here even though folks have asked him nicely, asked very him directly / pointedly and the mods post what we have seen today.

The first thing he posts is more of these games in a clever little way.

I am going to shut up now and just not add to threads here anymore (not that I add that much in the first place.)

[Danny]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Danny,You're jumping to an unsupported conclusion about the use of Converse or any other manual in the field. I posted verbage from an interesting advertisement I noticed while rummaging through old books. Nothing more ; nothing less.

Mark, I agree no conclusion about tutor use in the field could be made from that little clip, I did not mean that at all. I went back and re-stated, trusting that's more acceptable.

Back on thread topic: I've heard "Roll, Alabama, Roll" sung a-capella in Union camp. Couldn't decide that since that's about the sinking of a Confederate ship, would Unions sing it?, or,instead, as a memorial to a Confederate ship lost, would it only be sung in Cornfed camps?

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess