.69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber cartridge boxes

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Cartridge Boxes

Hi,

Yes, loading 69 caliber rounds into a 58 caliber cartridge box is going to be a pain. I just did this at reenactment, and they kinda fit, but you will not ba able to place as many rounds as you usually would place in your cartridge box.

[Haversack]

Re: Cartridge Boxes

Sounds like it would be much easier to use a .69 caliber box.

[C.R. Henderson]

Re: Cartridge Boxes

You could ask your messmates or friends that may not be going to that particular event -or who are going and may have that particular box that you are wanting to use- and ask to borrow it for the weekend or until you are able to procure one for yourself.:wink_smil That's what I did for New Hope Church and it worked out marvelously.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Cartridge Boxes

Do what many of us have done... end up with multiple accoutrement items so as to cover East/West, Early/Late, Federal/Confederate impressions.... yeah... this hobby can get pretty damned expensive can't it? :)

So true! Thanks, Brian... huzzah to you- I sure needed a laugh this morning and you delivered with this statement! :p

Horse... dead... beaten this one on this thread, I reckon. Please put the poor thing out of its misery... :confused_

-Johnny

[Chris Montague]

.69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber boxes

I have been looking on the forum but not yet found the answer. Does anyone have documentation regarding confederate soldiers using .58 caliber cartridge boxs when armed with .69 caliber weapons due to short supply of proper .69 caliber boxes? I would think that this would generally fall under the "if they had them, they would use it" category, but I was looking for specific examples.

regards,

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: .69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber boxes

Hi,

Here is a thread on the subject http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ad.php?t=18317

[Chris Montague]

Re: .69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber boxes

Andrew,

Thanks for the info.

regards,

[Hardtack Herring]

Re: .69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber boxes

Well,

Some Rebs carried their rounds in there pockets.......And had no box at all.

Remember.....A Soldier did not care where or who made their gear. They did not look at the button holes or hand or machine stitching.

They used what was given to them.

For your viewing pleasure I am going to attach 2 pictures of an original CS box....Looks to be .69 with 2 (what looks to be .69 ball Cartridges.)

This box was carried by M.KAHLE who was in the "Liberty Hall Volunteers" 4rth Virginia, Stonewall Brigade.

[John E. Tobey]

Re: .69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber cartridge boxes

Federal soldiers at least, did indeed put .69 caliber ammunition in their .58 boxes. A fellow who was measuring things in my collection discovered this accidentally.

Apparently, what they did was put the 1839 pattern box tins into 1861 pattern .58 boxes. Obviously, then, there's a caveat: the weapon used was a smoothbore. I had two original .58 boxes that had .69 tins in them -- there was the remote possibility that one of the tins had been replaced (since that particular box was unissued), but the other had been used that way for a long time.

The only major difference in the box tins is the height. When the .69 tins were put into the .58 box, the top of the tins protruded from the box, but not enough to prevent the box from sealing.

John Tobey

[CJ Roberts]

Re: .69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber cartridge boxes

Paul,

Wow! I'm not trying to take this thread in a different direction, but I believe that box is the only surviving accoutrement item I have seen documented to the Liberty Hall Vols. From what/whose collection does it come?

Thanks for posting these pictures.

Regards,

C.J.

[Hardtack Herring]

Re: .69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber cartridge boxes

Hello CJ my old friend!

My reaction when I saw this set was a little more than WOW!

I was wondering how long it would be before someone on this forum realized exactly what I had posted and how rare this set really is.

P.S. Nick, it looks like you are going to have some work coming your way soon! I know I would like to have the belt made for sure.

This set turned up on Ebay a few weeks ago with a starting bid of about 25,000 dollars.... Yep...25,000 dollars with a best offer by it now option. It was only online for a very brief period as it was pulled from ebay. I imagine he got a good offer for it or decided not to sell it. As you read the description the seller also owns the 1816 musket carried by Kahle.

CJ..... I have a bunch of images I pulled from the auction. Luckily I check ebay often or I would have missed this set. Send me an e-mail and I will send you all the images I have. I am going to post the description from the auction for everyone to read as this is a VERY VERY VERY rare set.

Worn by two different soldiers in the 4th Virginia, STONEWALL BRIGADE, one killed the other survived the war. M.KAHLE was in the "Liberty Hall Volunteers" who were formed at the outbreak of the Civil War by a group of students and alumni from Washington College. They entered the war in early June 1861 as Co. I part of the Fourth Virginia Infantry Regiment under the command of "Stonewall" Jackson. The company chose the name "Liberty Hall Volunteers" as a reference to the American Revolution and Lexington militia that fought under the same name. During the war, the Liberty Hall Volunteers endured many casualties and deaths. Of the 161 original members of the company 26 were killed in action, 42 died of disease, 16 died due to other causes, 43 were captured by Union forces, and 76 were wounded. Mathew Seltzer Kahle enlisted in June of 1861. He was detailed to "special duty by STONEWALL JACKSON". He was captured near Aldie VA in July of 1862 and returned to the ranks in early September of 1862. Later that year Kahle was transferred to VMI where he served until the war's end. His name appears as Khale in one source but it is, infact, spelled Kahle (Search him on the internet, he and his family will pop up). Mathew Kahle's father, also Mathew Seltzer Kahle, carved the famous statue in 1844 "OLD GEORGE" installed at Center Hall at Washington College in Lexington VA (Washington and Lee University). BENJAMIN FRANKLIN SEXTON enlisted in the 4th Virginia in April of 1861, SMYTH'S BLUES Co. D, he was mortally wounded at 2nd Bull Run or 2nd Manassas (Interestingly the name Manassas comes from the Jewish tavern keeper Manasseh, who owned the property since the 18th century on the site where the battle was fought.References to interested parties, Jewish studies is one of my fields). Sexton enter the war with the rank of 1st Sergeant. He died of wounds Sept. 2, 1862. There is every reason to believe that Kahle and Sexton were friends, both were carpenters by trade. Their stories I will detail later, first a description of the artifacts up for auction. All these items have been together since the end of the Civil War. They were found decades ago in the Lexington VA area by a "picker", who purchased the items, as you see them, along with a converted to percussion M1816 .69 Caliber musket (the same I have it has "M. KAHLE" carved in the stock, it is not offered for sale in this auction.). On a scale of 1 to 10 for Confederate items the CS made CARTRIDGE BOX, CAP BOX, BELT and pre-war made bayonet scabbard rate as 10. The cartridge box is classic CS manufacture! Made of elements of pigskin and brown died harness leather, LEAD FINIAL; ONE PIECE CARTRIDGE TIN; double thick and stitched, TARRED LINEN SLING (full length) Just over 1 1/2 inches wide with a total length of 58 inches. 2 original cartridges remain, one .69 caliber ball, the other .69 caliber buck & ball. Box measures 8 1/4 inches by 6 1/4 inches. Carved in mostly 1 inch up-right capital letters is "M. KAHLE". Down to the right, and carved later then the "M.Kahle", because it is done to fit in, but to the side is, "B. F. (then above "Franklin") SEXTON Co. D 4th REG. VA VOLS" and more that may say "Sergeant --" This is in upper case capitals and script, both. ABSOLUTELY PERIOD. The belt of Confederate manufacture has a typical iron "non-descript" buckle. It is 34 inches total length. The cap box is a rather crude CS copy of a US cap box; lots of original caps still in there. The bayonet scabbard is a US pre-war M1855 that has had the brass tip removed, at the time, to accept the shorter M1816 bayonet that Kahle used on his musket in the war. All show the same age, usage and patina. THE HISTORY: This unique set has been discussed with several top dealers and scholars, including Mr Gregory A. Coco author and historian bar none! Here is how we put it together. Kahle was originally issued the cartridge box, belt, cap box and scabbard. Also the 1816 Harpers Ferry .69 caliber musket (NOT offered in this sale). It is a fact that the 4th VA carried converted .69 caliber weapons. Kahle was at 1st Manassas and the Valley Campaign, but on June 9th 1862 he was assigned by "special order" of T.J. Jackson to be a Hospital steward at Aldie about 30 miles west of Washington. He would have kept his accouterments at hand. Serving in the hospital at Aldie, he is capture the beginning of July 1862 by Union Cavalry and not exchanged for 2 months. When he was incarcerated, there is no doubt that B.F Sexton used Kahle's equipment, maybe not his musket, but the rest. That is why Sexton's name is squeezed into the right bottom corner, not front and center like M. KAHLE whose name was already prominently there. Sergeant Sexton wears Kahle's accouterments through the Seven Days battles around Richmond. In August of 1862 he is shot in the head at 2nd Manassas, and dies Sept 2, 1862. Kahle, returns (paroled) perhaps in time to nurse Sexton, or shortly after his death? He is soon ordered to continue his services, but at the Virginia Military Institute. He takes his weapon and his former accoutrements and proceeds to VMI. He stays here until Lee Surrenders. I have only just stated to research the role he played at the institute or with the VMI cadets at the Battle of New Market (any input from eBayers welcome, and I will post your information). I did find a report written by General Smith about the battle, and after it that says, "Besides sending Col. Gilham & Col. Ross to aid in providing every necessary comfort for the cadets, I ordered Surgeon Madison, Asst. Surgeon Ross, Hospital Steward KAHLE, the Hospital attendant with four servants, an ambulance & full medical supplies to accompany the command. On Satruday, in anticipation of a fight I sent a wagon with supplies of coffee, sugar, tea, and other comforts." The previous owner, whom I have known for almost 30 years, told me that he had the stains on the linen sling tested and they tested for human blood, beyond a doubt Sexton's! At war's end Kahle is paroled at Lexington May 20th 1865,as he lived in Lexington, he probably carried these things to his home when the news of Appomattox, April 9th, arrived. Kahle was 5 feet 7 inches tall, and his comrade Sgt. Sexton was 5 feet 10 inches in height. Interestingly one can see the evidence that the sling was lengthened and then shortened. It cannot get better than this! Cartridge box and all shows evidence of having been hung up for over 100 years, please study all the photos carefully, this is a flawless set. And the price? Well, the last CS cartridge box of this quality and physical profile was sold by a major dealer years ago for $18,000, sans belt, cap box or bayonet scabbard (FYI, I owned that one back in 1992). The quintessential Confederate set. Guaranteed to be real for as long as I live, and I am old but healthy.

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: .69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber cartridge boxes

Hi All,

Interesting thread,

It is funny how questions like this come up every 10 or so years...

A while back. I ran across an original US .58 Cart Box that had Cs Provenance with the dividers removed, supposedly for the reason of admitting .69 Cal Round ball.

This interested me to the point of doing an experiment, just to see if this would actually work. By purchasing a set of .58 tins for my US Box and removing the dividers. Loading the box to see how many live .69 round ball cartridges would fit.

I was able to put into each top section 9 rounds and 9 loose rounds in each of the bottom compartments. Leaving 4 loose rounds. These could easily have been kept in a pocket.

To go further with the idea to see if it would work in theory..... The next event I when to as CS, I loaded the box with the same amount of period rolled .69 blanks in the box, with the 4 loose rounds, in my pocket.

With in the first 10 to 20 minutes of shooting, the 4 loose rounds were gone and the rest of the actions of taking rounds out of my box went as normal.

I am not sure if this would be a regular practice, but it does work. It would seem logical that it would be something a soldier might do in a pinch.


An experimental observation

Don S

[David Fox]

Re: .69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber cartridge boxes

.58 calibre boxes issued to .69 musket armed men? In 1968, when issued my in-country Vietnam traps, I found among them, in lieu of an air mattress, a canvas zip-up cover for an artic sleeping bag. I was the only Grunt I knew so equipped. Never did get a mattress, but that bag came in handy. Long about May, a duce-and-a-half rolled up to the bridge my platoon was guarding at the time. Off-loaded were several large crates. I was in the 9th Division, designated a cold climate unit. The boxes contained cold weather maintenance manuals, a chance of cold weather maintenance manuals which had followed the unit half way around the world (at taxpayers' expense) from Ft. Lewis, Washington. Tho' it was 100+ in the shade, and there wasn't any shade in the Mekong Delta, GI ingenuity prevailed: we made a bunker wall out of them. Judge Fox

[Chris Montague]

Re: .69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber cartridge boxes

Hi All,

Interesting thread,

It is funny how questions like this come up every 10 or so years...

A while back. I ran across an original US .58 Cart Box that had Cs Provenance with the dividers removed, supposedly for the reason of admitting .69 Cal Round ball.

This interested me to the point of doing an experiment, just to see if this would actually work. By purchasing a set of .58 tins for my US Box and removing the dividers. Loading the box to see how many live .69 round ball cartridges would fit.

I was able to put into each top section 9 rounds and 9 loose rounds in each of the bottom compartments. Leaving 4 loose rounds. These could easily have been kept in a pocket.

To go further with the idea to see if it would work in theory..... The next event I when to as CS, I loaded the box with the same amount of period rolled .69 blanks in the box, with the 4 loose rounds, in my pocket.

With in the first 10 to 20 minutes of shooting, the 4 loose rounds were gone and the rest of the actions of taking rounds out of my box went as normal.

I am not sure if this would be a regular practice, but it does work. It would seem logical that it would be something a soldier might do in a pinch.


An experimental observation

Don S

Don-

Hadn't thought about that possibility. Great experiment.

Regards,

[Rebelkid01]

Re: .69 caliber rounds in .58 caliber cartridge boxes

I'm not sure that round would fit, however, I'm not sure