Question for Silas

[john duffer]

Silas, I'm having trouble finding in the manual where it gives the proper position for officers pointing their swords towards the enemy when the line advances, do you recall right off where that is?

[thomas aagaard]

Re: Question for Silas

I don't believe you will find it in the main drill books.

I searched true Hardee's and in SoS the only place the word "sword" show up is at the end and it only tell us how to "carry" and "salute".
In SoB the field officers do use their swords to mark the direction of the march.
But that is the Col, Lt.col and Major who do it.

Looking forward to Silas's reply. :-)

[Silas]

Re: Question for Silas

Gee, Duffer, don't you know? Can't find everything in the manuals.

This common practice done everywhere I've reenacted must be legitimate. You'll see it in the Gettysburg movie - Pickett's Charge! - so there has to be a valid source somewhere. Hollywood doesn't just make things up. Right?

I'll bet it can be found in the old Civil War Historian magazine. I seem to remember some guy's picture filled article that had more ways to flail a sword than Carter has pills. Possibly you've seen the article...

[Matthew Joe Mallory]

Re: Question for Silas

I do not recall seeing anything in the manuals either, but I have read accounts of it happening on the field. While doing research on the unit I portray (35th Alabama), I did run across this piece in the Official Records.

In a report made by Colonel James W. Robertson dated August 7, 1862 in camp at the Comite River;
"It is the request of Colonel Thompson that his entire approbation of the conduct of all the field and acting field officers engaged, and Capt. W. P. Wallace and Lieut. Charles Semple, aides, and Acting Adjt. R. B. L. Sorey, of the Third Kentucky, be especially expressed in this report. To the deportment of the Thirty-fifth Alabama Regiment he desires attention to be called. This regiment, although for the first time under fire on the 5th instant, proved itself a worthy comrade for the Third, Sixth, and Seventh Kentucky Regiments, who in this action sustained the enviable reputations won by them on the field of Shiloh. Colonel Robertson would call especial attention to the gallant conduct of Col. E. Crossland and Lieut. Col. E. Goodwin, who, the first with his regimental colors in hand and the second with his hat on his sword, led the brigade in the final charge."

[thomas aagaard]

Re: Question for Silas

Nice source.

But when looking at the procedure in the drill books, it is clear that the colors are leading the unit when going forward.
And the Col and Lt. Col are suppose to be behind the lines.

So when they end up in front of their unit as they did, is that not a sign that their unit had an issue with training/discipline/moral?
And this caused them lead from the front like this?


At Shiloh many units was very poorly trained and much of the maneuvering was a simple case of follow the flag.
This is later, but a green unit...

[Matthew Joe Mallory]

Re: Question for Silas

I wouldn't say that it is a sign of poor training or discipline, although lack of training certainly can contribute. The 35th Alabama, which Lieutenant Colonel Goodwin was part of, was made up of the La Grange Military Academy, which was known for their proficiency in drill. Many factors can play a role as to why such officers would do what they did, even though it clearly went against the manuals. Inspiring the men to keep fighting, or to charge the enemy without ammunition is one such factor. According to a report by Colonel Goodwin, they had no ammunition when they made that charge. (Lieutenant Colonel Edwin Goodwin's report, same day and location as the previous letter mentioned)

[Silas]

Re: Question for Silas

A prime example of the practice to which Duffer rightfully complains can be found here : http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...891#post265891

If you look carefully enough, you can also find an example in the submitted photos of the Three Musketeers sword flourish for presenting arms, but that's not the practice which commenced this thread...

[Tyler Underwood]

Re: Question for Silas

Ok, ok I'm gonna take the bare on this one. Yes there are three swords pointing in the direction of "forward" But do I see the Sgt. Major pointing a stick to the front as well!?

[woodsda]

Re: Question for Silas

Found this searching the internet, maybe it will help, or not!

http://www.usvolunteers.org/units/second/MANUAL%20OF%20THE%20SWORD.pdf

[john duffer]

Re: Question for Silas

Ok, ok I'm gonna take the bare on this one. Yes there are three swords pointing in the direction of "forward" But do I see the Sgt. Major pointing a stick to the front as well!?

Actually I believe that's a private purchase staff. If I had to guess I'd say English import. It's where the term "staff sergeant" comes from