Austrian Lorenz Repop

[58 lorenz]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I found the combination tool for the Lorenz (in decent,undug condition) on eBay a few years ago for a reasonable amount-I can't remember, but it was somewhere around $25. I paid more for the bayonet than I paid for my Lorenz-$250, in good condition, in a nice,solid US pattern scabbard. I bought the Lorenz about 4 years ago at a local gunshow for $200. The seller was off in a corner, and no one was bothering to see what he had.



Doug Price

[militiaman1835]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I am wondering how rare are the nipple wrench/musket tools issued with the Lorenz? Only ones I have seen are dug examples? Are they as rare and expensive as the bayonets? JIM HENSLEY

[ACo.]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Is there any historical documentation that the Austrian scabbard, SCABBARD, was ever used in the American Civil War? I have seen many documented Lorenz muskets and bayonets, but scabbards?
It is my understanding that the scabbards, as pictured in above posted photo, came to these shores after the fall of the Soviet Bloc when a great number were discovered in an eastern European warehouse.
Steve Sullivan
CWPT
Co. Mil. Hist.

As a kid in the 1950s I remember seeing a wooden scabbard with remnants of the leather covering on a Lorenz bayonet in an old collection dating from the late 19th Century. I also have an Austrian scabbard tip (metal) that was dug near Fredericksburg, Va. I will try to get a usable photo posted. Dug Austrian scabbard throats also show up occasionally. So yes, in my opinion, they were used, I don't think there is any doubt about it and have never seen a collector that doubted it but we do seem to be lacking in photographic documentation. Has anyone ever seen a period image of a Lorenz scabbard being worn?

Now, as far as the urban legend that these came out of a warehouse in the nebulous "Eastern Europe", I doubt it but I suppose some could be coming out of sections of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Lorenz bayonet was in use as late as WW1 when the M1854/67 Wanzl (a trapdoor conversion of the M1854 Lorenz) saw its last use in the hands of rear echelon troops of the A-H Empire. Even Imperial Germany used some of the scabbards when they did ersatz conversions of of the 54 bayonet during the Great War for their own use (see "German Bayonets, Vol. III" by Anthony Carter) and some from one of these sources could be around in small quantities but to say that all showing up now were recently found is probably stretching it a bit.

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I personally would not use an original musket simply because it will be virtually impossible to look "authentic" with a 140+ year old gun. Think about it, those guns were new back then and thus looked that way. If you have in your possession a like-new original musket, you'd be a fool to take it out and shoot it no matter what it is. You can polish and restore an original to look fairly correct, but great care must be taken when doing this or faint markings will be ruined in the restoration process.

It is in the same vein as the "to polish or not" debate on our brass. It was polished back then. The uniforms were new. Guys were told to repair torn uniforms, sew back on lost buttons, polish brass, clean muskets, etc. The officers and more importantly sargeants had to keep the men occupied somehow, and the military then as well as now loves busy work. If you look 140+ years old, you look more farbby in many respects that then newbie that shows up with 100% new gear (unless of course his trousers have a crease). Just my opinion.

[rogue]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Is there any historical documentation that the Austrian scabbard, SCABBARD, was ever used in the American Civil War? I have seen many documented Lorenz muskets and bayonets, but scabbards?
It is my understanding that the scabbards, as pictured in above posted photo, came to these shores after the fall of the Soviet Bloc when a great number were discovered in an eastern European warehouse.
Steve Sullivan
CWPT
Co. Mil. Hist.

[pipthelimey]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

As a side note, one of my pards sent me some pictures of an original Lorenz import scabbard.

http://www.sharpsburg-arsenal.com/Rifles___Muskets/Untitled964/untitled964.html

http://www.sharpsburg-arsenal.com/Ri...__muskets.html (Homepage)

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Andrew:
To my knowledge the Confederacy did not make or contract for a cloth or leather scabbard specifically for the Austrian Lorenz bayonet.

[pipthelimey]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I'm sorry, I should have specified the question I was asking a little bit better. I was trying to ask if anyone had ever seen a Lorenz bayonet scabbard of Confederate manufacture. I saw a post regarding a painted cloth scabbard with a lead finial, and I was wondering if we had any knowledge of a CS manufactured one. I don't doubt that they came with scabbards, and that Gaylord pattern scabbards were manufactured as well, but we also know that scabbards didn't last forever in the field, (I have copies of requisitions that include bayonet scabbards) so what recourse were the troops left with if there wasn't a CS manufactured alternative?

Kind Regards,


Hopefully that's clearer

[JWNathan]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I for one have found this whole thread quite enlightening and VERY interesting. The back and forth of this disscussion is exactly what should be done, Im just glad its not a one sided look at this musket; either this thing sucks or, this rifle is great. Thank you guys.
-Jesse

[Jimmayo]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

US issue Austrian scabbard ID to Oliver Godfrey of the 14th NH. It came with a M-1855 Springfield bayonet.

[sharpshooter]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

here is link from Wambaugh and White that might be useful

http://www.wwandcompany.com/usleathers.html

[3alabama]

Re: Regarding Lorenz Bayonets

Question regarding Lorenz Bayonets:
Does anyone have an original scabbard for one? I imagine that when they were imported they came with the issue scabbard, but I have never seen one.

Are you talking about the original Austrian made leather covered wood scabbard? Or the 2 rivit Gaylord parttern US scabbard? I have seen 1 Austrian made scabbard a while ago and own an original 2 rivit Gaylord pattern one for the Austrian bayonet

[roundshot]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Or they simply made use of whatever scabbard they were issued, as this Yank did.

[pipthelimey]

Regarding Lorenz Bayonets

Question regarding Lorenz Bayonets:
Does anyone have an original scabbard for one? I imagine that when they were imported they came with the issue scabbard, but I have never seen one.

Someone posted an available "CS manufactured Scabbard" as a reproduction alternative, but an original letter from the director of the Columbus Laboratories states that the Depot "never has, and has no plans to manufacture a bayonet scabbard for the Austrian rifle." If Columbus didn't manufacture them, and since they were the largest depot in proximity to the AOT, who used the most Lorenz's, I am wondering if the bayonets weren't either used until the issue scabbards wore out and then discarded, or if there was a different pattern of scabbard for another bayonet which served the same purpose.

Let's not go gung ho with tarred scabbards until we can document one. I'll try and find the full text of that letter and post it in a day or so.

Andrew Jerram

[csuniforms]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Hello, You are correct in stating that you dont want to ruin the firearm. They are replaceable and can be fixed if needed. The only thing that could happen is that someone walks off with it. I have carried mine in four or five of the big reenactments of the mid-eighties and have never had any trouble. I do get the "is that an original?" As to the argument that they have a patina and cant be polished-- well I see a lot of polished originals at gun shows. What you cant do is polish off the markings--

Tom Arliskas