The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

Hallo!

Yes, I hate the old stocks with their 1/64 inch coat of poly... ;)
Most strippers after repeated applications seem to just turn it white rather than soften it enough to take off. :)
One of the "nicer" things about the modern era is that the Italains seem not to be using speckled linden (basswood) anymore and covering it with brown shoe polish before plasticizing the stocks.

And yes, I be at Newville, although for the first time in a long time, ye lads are falling by the wayside, hors du combat, in increasing numbers.

Curt
Still making Sims Mess

[ACo.]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

Curt and Todd, excellent recommendations on the scrapers, most people aren't aware of that method so I generally leave it out - nothing beats a scraped finish and in the days before sandpaper became common it was used exclusively to remove tool marks and even out to a fine finish - very little need for anything else since the scraper actually cuts the wood and leaves almost no compressed "whiskers". Next we'll be explaining how to use bone to burnish wood.... :wink_smil

Curt, that mid '80s EuroArms stock will give you fits won't it? I refinished on of Navy Arms first M1803 Harpers Ferry repops back in the mid to late '70s and the plastic finish was, to say the least, very difficult to remove. Six or seven coats of stripper and I still ended up scraping it to get bare wood. Sheesh! The wood turned out to be a low grade of European walnut sapwood but stained up pretty well. I generally try not to do reproduction stock from that era unless someone really needs the help. Oh, will you be at Newville in a couple of weeks?

[VanceGuardsLT]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

To all who have contributed to this thread: I just spent the last couple of days reading every post, and I have to say that there is some excellent information here. If someone could collate it into a research article (w/appropriate references) that would be grand. To me, it was almost like sitting in on a seminar on CW weapons, both original and repro.

Kudos to those of you who shared their observations on original pieces, and especially the photos.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

Hallo!

The reason for progressively finer grits is the same as for polishing metal- one progressively replaces deeper and more numerous scratches in the surface with finer and fewer until the human eye does not see them anymore.

The danger of sanding already finished stocks can come from too aggressive of wood removal from areas that need to remain well defined or "crisp," the rounding of edges, and the making of straight lines such as the forestock crooked or even wavy.
But when one is "thinning down" previously untouched oversized Italian stocks, and some wood removal is needed, abrasion does help cut through the old "plastic" Italian finish as well. (I also prefer scraping it with the edge of a knife and then retouching it with fine sandpaper.)


Curt
Who needs to strip a mid 1980's EuroArms stock ere we speak Mess

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

I have used strippers to get the Euroarms shellac finish off, but usually just opt for a Fisher scraper. I have to sand mine as I really rasp-off a lot of wood to defarb them and then use belt sanders to get the rasp marks off before then moving to sandpaper. If you are just wanting to remove old stain and apply new, you may not want the coarse grit papaers I mentioned.

When at gunsmithing school, we did use steel wool to whisker stocks. However, we were warned that sometimes the steel wool pieces get ripped out by raised grain and then can rust in the wood pores leaving brown marks there. This is not that big of a deal for a musket. But on a moder rifle stock with a mirror finish it is an issue. Just something to think about when steel wool is being used. I don't use the wool anymore on the stocks for that purpose. I don't really find it is necessary if you use really light paper and use gentle pressure.

[ACo.]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

For sanding the finish on the stock before applying the oil, what grade sand paper is best and easiest on the wood?
Thanks,
Patrick Smith

The following applies to those considering the re-working of a finished reproduction to a more "correct" finish but also holds true with an unfinished kit gun.

Try a good grade of furniture stripper first. I have had good luck with "Formby's Furniture Refinisher" but it may not work as well as some of the stronger types available at any hardware/paint store. Whatever type you use, follow the directions on the can carefully. Some modern finishes do not come off with stripper right away, especially some of the plastic or epoxy based finishes that were in use back 20 or 30 years ago but current finishes seem to be easier to remove. If the stripper that you purchase does not seem to be working the way it should, talk to the people at the store, they may be able to recommend another type more suited to your finish. When the stripper has done its work and the wood is dry you can burnish with 00, 000 or even 0000 steel wool, I usually use 00 or 000.

Best avoid sandpaper altogether when refinishing a stock, it is the last thing you want to use and should only come into play if the finish can not be removed any other way. If you have to use it, start with 120 or 150 (no courser) and work to finer grades, the 120 or 150 will remove all of the finish. You can go as fine as 320 but it really should not be necessary, stop at 220 if possible. The course grits will removed too much wood too fast and you will have an uneven mess with gouges in the surface of the wood so use a sanding block and use long strokes to avoid this problem. And remember to sand with the grain of the wood, not across it (back to front, not up and down). Try to remove as little wood as is humanly possible, too much and the surface of the wood around your inletting cuts will be reduced and the metal parts (triggerguard, buttplate and lock, band springs, muzzle cap, etc.) will stand proud of the wood and it will look like crap. Also the barrel bands will become loose if too much wood is removed. Speaking of barrel bands, sand from the shoulder of one to the shoulder of the next one - if you sand over the shoulders you will round them over and are in BIG trouble. The above can also hold true when finish sanding a kit gun, use the same grades of sandpaper.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

Just to chime in, I usually give it a once over with steel wool after the final sanding. I don't know it seems to get the dust off the stock and prep it for the oil finish. When it is ready for the handrubbed BLO finish, the first coat soaks in fast, and you get a sense of how the wood is going to look. With steel wool buffing between coats, it helps manage the "shine".

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

To sand correctly, you need to use different grits. Always sanding with the grain, use a coarse grit like a 60 or 100 grit and rub firmly but not so firmly that you rip grain strands out. This grit gets the old finish off and light marks out. Steam-out any old dings you want removed now. Then, move to a 150 grit and then to a 220 grit. That is about as far as you need to go for Civil War stocks. If you want a finer finish you can go on to 320 and 400 grits, but I do not think they did that much back then. They also did not fill the grain back then on military stocks. When I do mine, I stop at 220 grit and whisker the wood by dampening its surface and allowing it to air-dry a couple of hours. This raises dust and whiskers from pores and grain creases. I then lightly sand again with 220 or 32o (whichever is handy) just to remove the rough-texture caused by raised whiskers. You can do this as many times as you want, but I find once is generally good enough for a Civil War stock. On modern stocks, I do go to finer grits, fill grain and whisker multiple times, but this gives a higher lustre finish than any military stock builder would have cared about offering.

[LonestarRifles]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

For sanding the finish on the stock before applying the oil, what grade sand paper is best and easiest on the wood?
Thanks,
Patrick Smith

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

When you order from Blockade Runner, they find one that fits in their inventory or have me fit one to the gun.

[COLDSTEEL1865]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

THANKS TO ALL FOR THE INFO ON WHERE TO GO GO FOR DEFARBING.
Another question do they adjust or find bayonets that will fit the musket in my case is an 1861 Springfield i have been to sutlers at different events and cant seem to find one that fits right. thanks again


COLDSTEEL1865
"HAVE NO MERCY GIVE THEM COLDSTEEL"

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

Be aware that my "mimic" of the rivitted nose caps will permanently afix the nose caps to the stocks, just as the rivitted version does. To rivit them right would take rivits of the right size which I have been unable to locate, and a shaped anvil against which to swage them. Again, that is not easily located and is too much trouble to create. I have only done 1 so far, but will soon do a couple more to fill orders already made. (I am going to have to increase my prices as well as this is adding more labor and parts, but mainly due to the overall increase in living we are all seeing these days. I have not figured it out yet with BRI, but by summer I think it will have to be done.)

[Craig L Barry]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

Speaking of Enfield de-farbing, Todd Watts has started doing the commercial Birmingham riveted brass nosecap, or at least mimicking the appearance of the riveted nosecap. For those who really want the details right...As far as building the Euroarms from a kit, it really depends on your woodworking skill and how much time you have to finish the roughed out parts. It is not "difficult" just time consuming. I would not recommend staining the wood, but rather seeing how it looks with a couple coats of boiled linseed oil. Keep in mind the original stocks are darker now, after accumulating 150 yrs of dirt and handling. You want to duplicate the way the weapon looked when it was issued. The stocks were not usually stained before being treated with BLO.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

Hallo!

"Where is the cut-off between being authentic and being dangerous here? Insurance for events is expensive enough without increasing the number of exploded weapons."

IMHO...

Oh, somewhere between the borders of India and Pakistan, and some events.
But I won't beat that Dead Horse again for the time being... ;)

Seriously, it would be hard to reduce the barrel of an Italian reproduction arm down to the point it would burst with a blank charge or two and still fit into an Italian stock.

Curt
Whose once took heat for failing inspection on an Enfield with the most beautifully formed, large, ring half way down the barrel...

[lukegilly13]

Re: The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

For the first few years, he was one of the few lads I knew who could take $600 worth of parts and build a $200 gun.

Curt

I LOVE that quote! You summarized exactly what I was thinking. Numerous times I have read sutlers saying that their material producers will not produce materials as bad as the confederate government did and that their reproductions are as close as possible without creating a shoddy product. There are not many reenactors out there (me included) who would be willing to put their gun investment through what soldiers had to put theirs through. Also, i'm not sure I want to stand in the ranks next to someone firing moose loads who has "shaved a little here and there" off their weapon who had no idea what they were doing. Where is the cut-off between being authentic and being dangerous here? Insurance for events is expensive enough without increasing the number of exploded weapons. To anyone new at this, please seek AT LEAST guidance and supervision of a professional before "defarbing" structural parts.