english saddles

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

I've kind of lost track of where this thread was originally headed... something about English saddles?!:D

Anyway, back to the saddle proper... does anyone know if it was more common to use deer hair for the flocking or wool as was seen in the Berney Bros. video? Maybe it was a regional thing, I'm not sure, but the one original 19th century saddle I've ridden was stuffed with deer hair and I was curious as to whether or not that was the norm.

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

In my limited experience, exposure, and English and Western classes in the Modern World, I would say that "Western" can use both reins in the left hand or the right, as the reins are not "pushed and pulled/given and taken" with two hands but rather "laid" against the horse's neck with one.

Yes, but what about the leg position? Modern western show-ring riding, at least, calls for a more centered/balanced seat, legs underneath.

And then there's more to the reins than just one-handed vs. two-handed.

Henry Herbert gives the usual party line here, with an illustration of the hands and reins on the next page. "As it is the almost universal custom among good riders in this country to ride with the reins in the left hand only, and as those deviating from this custom would be considered awkward, such persons as desire a reputation for skilful riding should hold their reins as is represented in Fig. 31."

The illustration shows the reins coming from a double bridle with each rein separated by the fingers. The horse is apparently ridden with constant light contact on the bit, modern-English-style (see next page about "lightness of hand"), with the horse's head encouraged to be up in the style of gaited horses today.

The overall result seems neither English nor western nor gaited nor anything that's taught today.

Obviously I don't mean that every person in the 19th century rode that way, any more than every person today rides in a definite show-ring style, though it does show up in a fair number of period illustrations.

But if that was the goal of how a gentleman should ride, is there any style of riding today where one could just go to a riding instructor and say "teach me _______ style" and come out looking like a well-trained gentleman from the 1860s? Ironically enough, I don't think there is, but I dunno.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: english saddles

Thanks for the good information, guys. Exactly the explanations I was looking for.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: english saddles

Hallo!

"That's just a dandy example of a common riding style one sees in the period--the long straight leg extended forward, both reins held in the left hand. Is there any style of riding taught today, where that's considered acceptable?"

Being left-handed, and having grown-up in the archaic system of a right-handed world beating left-handed-ness out of a lad, it is interesting (and perhaps historically/militarily) proper that the left-hand is for the reins and the right hand for a weapon or in civilian circles a crop/whip.

(Although I am reminded of the arena where even in the two handed reining of single and double reins in the "English" styles that the crop is rotated to the outside of the horse depending upon the direction.)

In my limited experience, exposure, and English and Western classes in the Modern World, I would say that "Western" can use both reins in the left hand or the right, as the reins are not "pushed and pulled/given and taken" with two hands but rather "laid" against the horse's neck with one.
(Although the loose ends of the reins can be held with the other hand to give the arm something to do other than hang... ;) )

Curt

[Ken Knopp]

Re: english saddles

Hank, Thanks for posting those photos!! Hey, not to side track this thread but,....While he apppears to be riding a Federal officer's pattern Mac saddle a blow up of the Capt Howard photo clearly shows a non-regulation bridle with double rein Pelhem bit and, what appears to be a decorative tassle-like (?) addition hanging under the horse's throat. I may be mistaken here but I may also detect a British numnah under the saddle. The pattern and "look" of it is very similar to the VERY FEW Crimea era type British numnahs I have found in other photographs. All of this is very English if not British military which begs the question about Federal (or private) imports of British equipments or.....maybe...(speculation here....) purchase of Prize Court auction equipments from captured CS Blockade runners. Anyway, just some interesting observations. Great photos and thoughts about riding posture!

Ken R Knopp

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

To me though, it appears that the Prince is "posting" or standing in the stirrups giving the long, straight legged look and were he sitting, the look/leg position would be different

Yes, he's turned around looking at the dog, half standing, maybe posting too, so his position isn't necessarily natural.

Let me see if I can find some more examples.

Mr. Pinkerton.

Capt. Howard.

Plantation owner illustrated in Harper's Weekly (scroll down).

A set of Muybridge still photos, kinda dark unfortunately:

Okay, here's another Muybridge set of stills, though I can't be sure the rider isn't bareback.

A hunting painting. Check out the rider in the lower left background on the black horse too.

Cartoonish drawing.

Currier & Ives lithograph of a trotter under saddle.

That's just a quick random sample of variations on the theme, at different speeds, both photos and drawings. It certainly wasn't universal, but it's something you see often enough that it seems to be an actual type of posture.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

That's a really neat painting depicting Prince Wilhelm... on several different points! To me though, it appears that the Prince is "posting" or standing in the stirrups giving the long, straight legged look and were he sitting, the look/leg position would be different. Still a very neat painting... I like the Prince's rig and I really like his clothing!!!

[Ken Knopp]

Re: english saddles

Gents,

The attached are some “period” drawings and photos of English saddles. The saddles are from 1870's and 1880's catalogs which I hope will help illustrate the differences I will try to explain. Please forgive me here, I hesitate so as to "not" present myself as condescending, overbearing or a “know it all”. I only wish to share some patterns and information that I have observed over the years and maybe also help someone find the right saddle for their reenacting experience. First, allow me (forgive) to re-cap some earlier notes and add a few more:

Answering Larry’s question about the relative appearances of period vs that of modern English saddles I concur with excellent points made by Hank Trent, Chris Shumacker, Curt Schmidt and Scott McMahon that most can be found in the materials used and general construction of the English saddle. From what I can tell, the major differences originated in the development of the “forward seat” in the late 19th century to early 20th for jumping which initiated a subtle evolution in the construction of English saddles. Over time this developed into a narrowing of the gullet and a curved, more forward skirt (flap). The appearance of the above are often easily observed in today’s English saddle by the construction of a more narrow but higher, structured gullet and a forward slant and curve to the skirt (flap). For example, the photo of the modern English saddle earlier in the thread displays this very well and includes highly padded and modern (rear) bars.
PLEASE BE AWARE that “period” saddles such as Somerset and Kilgore patterns are often mis-identified as English saddles. The differences can be very subtle to the untrained eye but in general English saddles TENDED TO BE MORE FLAT while the popular Somerset generally had a more pronounced pommel and the Kilgore even more so. For example, ....

SOMERSET: As a separate pattern the Somerset saddle originated before our Civil War (early 19th century or earlier) but it is not clear where or when. Their distinction is that they utilized an English tree but with pommel and cantle modifications allowing for a slightly deeper seat and a wider variety of enhanced leather treatments than typical English saddles. In appearance, the Somerset is a transition pattern between the harmonious, flat English saddle and, the higher pommel and cantle of the Kilgore saddle, (see below). Often appearing similar to the Kilgore it is differentiated by a more modest pommel and a low, graceful, (almost flat), seat and cantle closer to English saddles. Variations and enhancements depicted in catalogs were many including with or without stitched down seats, under padding, fancy tooling, assorted skirt treatments and sizes, open wood or metal stirrups but rarely with fenders. Saddle makers of the period blended so many styles the Somerset can easily be confused with both the English and the Kilgore and, occasionally even the post war Spring Seat saddles however, the basic configuration of an English tree combined with a varying pommel and cantle is what makes a Somerset.

KILGORE: While one of the most popular 19th century commercial saddle patterns it is not clear where or when the Kilgore originated but it was likely just prior to the Civil War. With the explosion of the catalog saddle business after the war the Kilgore became one of the best selling saddles with fanciful variations found in nearly every riding saddle catalog well into the 20th century.
The Kilgore tree configuration varied by maker but is noted for a higher, (often knobby), pommel and deeper seat than the two-piece, English style Somerset. In fact, its four-piece construction including pommel and cantle are often very similar to the McClellan tree. Even more than the Somerset, the Kilgore seemed to enjoy many style variations and fancy embellishments by its makers. Like many riding saddles of the day most included thick under padding of the bars and skirts for use without a saddle blanket.

Variations in all three of these patterns included seat sizes, leather treatment and colors (from cowhide to pig skin to kip to harness, enameled, buff, etc. etc.) knee pads, cantle rolls, under padding, moveable panels, varieties of flap patterns, stirrups and accoutrements and more- even rawhide covered trees! However, allow me to make the following very important qualification about saddle manufacturing in general:

Saddlery, harness making and leather tanning had not changed much in the 100 years prior to the Civil War (and to about the 1870's) and therefore, much as it was during the Antebellum period. However, about the 1870s’ great changes began to take place. In the 1870's oak bark as a tanning agent began to be replaced by both Hemlock and gradually, South American Quebracho bark which became extensively used by the turn of the century. Then in 1904 a blight destroyed the Chestnut Oak trees in the United States ending forever the use of that kind of bark as a tanning agent. In the 1880's leather bartering was changed so as to be sold by the square foot instead of by weight altering many of the processes in leather tanning and production that were designed to induce weight. Furthermore, in the decades that followed the war new machines were invented for sewing heavy leather, splitting and cutting leather, new metal alloys for buckles and stirrups (for example, nickel plating became popular) and, new rivets and machines for mass producing them evolved quickly so that by the early 20th century leather tanning, manufacturing and their products were noticeably different in appearance than that of Antebellum America.

So, ......in short the “look” of an Antebellum period English was actually very different from its early 20th century decedent. If you cannot afford the “excellent” Stuart Lilie re-pops and (do not want to use an original Somerset or Klgore) but prefer to find an English saddle that approximates an Antebellum pattern, start by looking at old photos and drawings to learn their subtle differences. Then try to find an old English saddle with straight down type skirts (flaps) and, as flat as possible. They are still out there. One can always modify it by adding padding, replacing the hardware, stirrup leathers, stirrups, etc. Please refrain from using nickel or chrome plated "anything".

PS: Correct me if I am wrong here but I think the "cut-back" gullets as noted are a post war modification "ala" the Whitman saddle.


1. Painting from 1771
2. Drawing of an English tree from the 1883 Peters & Calhoun saddle catalog
3. Photo of an old English tree
4. English or Somerset saddle from the 1875 catalog of Harbison & Gathwright
5. English saddle from Risser & Reitz 1882
6. Somerset saddle from Graf Morsbach Co. 1889
7. Kilgore Saddle

Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

Here is a painting of Prince Wilhelm of Prussia (future Kaiser Wilhelm I) done by Franz Krueger in 1836.

That's just a dandy example of a common riding style one sees in the period--the long straight leg extended forward, both reins held in the left hand. Is there any style of riding taught today, where that's considered acceptable?

By the way, it just occurred to me, Eadweard Muybridge may be the closest chance we have to a motion picture of a rider in the 1860s. Check this out:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Horses_animations

All the ones labelled "Muybridge" were "filmed" (so to speak) in the 1870s.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: english saddles

Hallo!

It can be tricky to impossible sometimes to find what one is looking for.

Here is a painting of Prince Wilhelm of Prussia (future Kaiser Wilhelm I) done by Franz Krueger in 1836.




Looking for the evolution in English riding saddles where they become flat and flatter to allow the rider to sit rear, and where the pommel is not only nearly flat but cut-back to free the horse's withers.
(But even among the back saddle English saddle the height of the cantle can range higher or lower. The ones I ride are just about flat across the pommel and cantle area, and remind me more of leather pads than saddles. :) )



Curt

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

When I think of a saddle tree, I think of a wooden frame under the leather or rawhide. My idea of an English tree is the same, except that the frame is completely covered with leather. I'm not sure how the shape of the tree on this rig puts you in a different seat, so my question should be worded in an even more simplified fashion: Is it the shape of the seat, the rise of the cantle, the slope of the pommel, the shape of the skirts or that little padded thingy on the front of the skirt? Is it the shape and/or position of the hardware, the color of the leather, or all of the above?

Others have answered far better about all the changes in construction details. Guess I was just assuming that we were talking about if obvious things like non-natural materials, chrome/stainless, stitching, etc. were taken care of.

But just to address the one issue I mentioned, I've never actually compared naked trees, but it feels like the modern tree is designed to be lower at the pommel end and higher at the cantle end. Think of the difference between sitting in an office chair with a flat seat and a couch with a seat angled slightly back. An office chair naturally makes it easier to "sit up" and type, while a couch naturally makes it easier to lean back.

Tried to find some pictures, not much luck.

Here's a modern dressage saddle tree, but I can't find an equivalent photo of a period tree or a modern hunter-jumper tree. Maybe these series of illustrations show it better. Compare the height of the pommel on the jumping saddles most designed to encourage forward seat (#1-5) with the height of the pommel on the dressage saddle (#6) for more centered riding.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

Mr. Schumaker,

I would agree with you regarding learning to ride bareback, but do you really believe you should be able to accomplish all tasks bareback?

Well, you're right...not everything is easily, nor wanted to be achieved riding bareback. My point was more to stress the importance of the seat and learning it bareback before the use of any other assistance. The saddle seat is the single most important tool and rider has to accomplish anything mounted.

Regarding the differences between 18th and 19th century saddles vs. modern ones...well, many of the obvious things stand out. Wooden trees vs. composite, shapes of trees, synthetic seat webbing vs. cloth, completely hand stitched vs. combination of machine and hand, wool flocking with leather panels vs. cloth, stainless hardware, and on and on. Materials are current, but I'd dare say that the best makers employing some of the same techniques used in construction is something that's timeless.

I highly recommend looking at Stuart Lillie's site. Very good 18th and early 19th century saddles, which shows some of the evolution between civilian english, Hungarian hussar, and further hybrids thereof.

For those that are interested in Berney Bros., there's a great little video on them here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1MrEMABtYg

Mods, if this link is too modern...please excuse, but this family owned company has been hand making saddles since 1820 and many of the tools, materials, techniques are still in use today. Much of what is being talked about can only greatly enhance peoples' knowledge and understanding of equine material culture over the centuries, including the tiny spec from 1861-1865. Just listen what the old man says about what it takes to make a good saddle. The first thing out of his mouth: "A good tradesman, who knows what he's making."

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: english saddles

Thanks, Scott, that's what I was looking for. I'm familiar with Lilie's work and have his site saved to my favorites. I was under the impression that all English saddles of the period had really flat seats like a jockey saddle, but that doesn't appear to be the case. It looks like seat styles varried a little, even then.

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

Larry,

The hardware is probably chromed and the underpadding on the originals I've seen(and I haven't seen that many) tends not to be leather, it seems like it's usually cloth. I'm nto sure, but the keeper on the skirt looks modern... can't recall seeing that on an original and the knee roll looks different than what I'm used to seeing.

I know you're not wanting one but if you did, this is what you'd want it to look like! http://www.stuartliliesaddles.com/in...9thmilitia.htm

Stuart is the man when it comes to making 19th century English saddles. He makes a variety of patterns from the 18th century on up and I wish he was here to get in on this discussion!!!

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: english saddles

I thought I gave my opinion on that in post #24 above. Short answer: The tree would be balanced to encourage a rider to use posture that's popular today, rather than what was common in the 1860s.

I don't know about the saddle in the picture in particular, but that would be true for modern hunter-jumper English saddles, and was true for the modern "all-purpose" English saddle I used to ride.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

Hank,

I apologize. I think my question is a little vague so forgive me if I seem the same way. Let me see if I can rephrase the question.

For those of us who know little to nothing about English saddles, visually, what makes this saddle wrong? When I think of a saddle tree, I think of a wooden frame under the leather or rawhide. My idea of an English tree is the same, except that the frame is completely covered with leather. I'm not sure how the shape of the tree on this rig puts you in a different seat, so my question should be worded in an even more simplified fashion: Is it the shape of the seat, the rise of the cantle, the slope of the pommel, the shape of the skirts or that little padded thingy on the front of the skirt? Is it the shape and/or position of the hardware, the color of the leather, or all of the above?

I know you tried to answer my question earlier, and I appreciate it, but I'm a little thick and I didn't catch your meaning. Maybe my more simplified question will help.