english saddles

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

However, I never had my original question answered and that really bothers me. All I really want to know, and I'm serious, is what makes that modern English saddle of Chris' wrong for our hobby today?

I thought I gave my opinion on that in post #24 above. Short answer: The tree would be balanced to encourage a rider to use posture that's popular today, rather than what was common in the 1860s.

I don't know about the saddle in the picture in particular, but that would be true for modern hunter-jumper English saddles, and was true for the modern "all-purpose" English saddle I used to ride.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: english saddles

Interesting discussion and good information all around. I'm not sure the Ford vs. Chevy analogy is the best one, though. More like Ford vs. Land Rover or Chevy vs. Toyota.

Hank, I admire your love for the English saddle and I've enjoyed the discussion on seat position. I think Scott, Ken and Patrick have expertly pointed out the utilitarian uses for spanish trees and saddle horns, so I have nothing else to add. I will say this... I believe that the popularity of western movies in 20th century culture undoubtedly had an impact on the type of saddles people ride today. However, the evidence is overwhelming that here in Louisiana the spanish impact was immediate and severe, long before California was a state. Here in the "southwest" our culture developed independently and differently than our more cultured brethren in the east. We rode our horses and mules to coon hunt, not fox hunt, and it was for meat, not for sport. Cattle was the dominant industry along in our rural areas since the early 1700s and the vaquero tools of trade spread through here like wildfire because they were much more practical.

I honestly believe that culture had everything to do with the war and what our soldiers were riding and how they rode. I don't know a thing about a forward seat and I honestly don't know a single person who would speak to me walking down the street that owns an English saddle. I know quite a few trailriders who ride endurance saddles or Australian hybrids (with horns, usually), and they'll speak to me sometimes. I think it's a matter of culture, plain and simple.

I've ridden in an English saddle a few times (but I didn't let my friends see me) and I thought it was a decent enough ride, but it's not something I'd want to sit in all day every day trying to get my daddy's cow out of the swamp. I think my Trans-Mississippi Confederate ancestors probably had the same feelings that I did. I can ride a horse. I don't know if my body is alligned perpindicular to the pivot of the forward motion of my equine companion, but I know that when I need ol' Dobbin to jump a slough or dead tree in the woods at a gallop or get in front of a steer and keep him from turning back to the herd that my butt stays where I put it.

Please don't get me wrong. I admire and respect those from other cultures that have a different way of doing things. Especially when they admire and respect us for having our own way of doing things. I believe the same was true during the war.

However, I never had my original question answered and that really bothers me. All I really want to know, and I'm serious, is what makes that modern English saddle of Chris' wrong for our hobby today?

Oh, yeah, and Longrope, that is Alfred Pleasanton with Custer and not J. Kilpatrick. Or am I wrong about that, too?

Great thread.

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

You SHOULD be able to accomplish all tasks on a horse bareback and in fact, learning to ride bareback should always come first. [/URL]

Mr. Schumaker,

I would agree with you regarding learning to ride bareback, but do you really believe you should be able to accomplish all tasks bareback? There are some tasks that are impossible to do bareback and others that while they can be attempted, or even carried out, are not effective without a saddle of some sort. If everything could be done bareback, there would be no need for a saddle, or maybe more importantly, stirrups!

How does one get in on the "mounted" special interests group here on the AC?

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

Its really impossible to tell from the photo, but they could be leather or a hard rubber. I assume they're either holed or slotted.

The safes on the martingale are definitely slotted to allow the reins to pass through.

[English Doc]

Re: english saddles

GREAT THREAD on the A/C for once!!

Here's a link to another thread I started to discuss an 1862 photo of secret serviceman John Babcock and his horse, Gimlet. Also note the civilian headstall with rosettes and use of a simple snaffle with snap hooks stitched onto the reins. I also love the cheek stops used, which are still commonplace for many today and the running martingale with safes, also commonplace when necessary today. This is NOT a breast strap.

Great! Today the cheek stops are made of rubber and are still fairly difficult to put on. I assume those of the type in the Gimlet image are/were leather? So how were they fitted? Did they have a slot in them?

If anyone has any information on that I for one would be very interested.

Thanks.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

GREAT THREAD on the A/C for once!!

Here's a link to another thread I started to discuss an 1862 photo of secret serviceman John Babcock and his horse, Gimlet. Note the points I've highlighted and view the pdf attachment for details. This English saddle is very 19th century, with next to no knee roll and sits very flat. He's using both a saddle cloth and a blanket underneath this saddle. Also note the civilian headstall with rosettes and use of a simple snaffle with snap hooks stitched onto the reins. I also love the cheek stops used, which are still commonplace for many today and the running martingale with safes, also commonplace when necessary today. This is NOT a breast strap.

Many historical photos and paintings show horses without any blanket. I believe its a more traditional way of looking at a horse under saddle. Even today, the most traditionally turned out foxhunters use a pad that's no larger than the underbars of their saddle. Remember, the emphasis is and was ALWAYS the horse. Again...remember what's important and what isn't...MINIMAL HUMAN incursion on the movement of the animal! Equine portraits and paintings emphasize the horse, hence why so many racehorses, studs, etc. are most often shown standing with bridle or halter only. Perhaps this can help lead into the psychological difference between "east" and "west" as many cow ponies were just a tool to be used. I agree, though, that under hard campaign...pads wear out and blankets must be used. Just look at Babcock and Gimlet in the highlighted thread.

European armies and continental armies had been using, riding, and working hard for centuries out of saddles that are basic and many were English in design. They're light, practical, and comfortable. You SHOULD be able to accomplish all tasks on a horse bareback and in fact, learning to ride bareback should always come first. An English saddle accomplishes all that's needed as a base for stirrup leathers to be hung, while providing a smaller platform that's lightweight and minimally interferes with the animal. I still stand by my belief that at a basic level...the more things change, the more they stay the same.

See this thread for the John Babcock and Gimlet attachment:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ead.php?t=5183

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

I think Mr. Knopp has done a pretty good job of covering horn uses(and thank you for the kind words sir!)... when you start riding a horned saddle in "period environs" you find all sorts of things they're good for! Personally I've never liked the horn loop for my longarm but the horn itself makes a good counterbalance to help keep your longarm in your lap and my saddle and shotgun have the wear marks to prove it(and that is an easily documentable practice to the mid 19th c.).

Without taking time to dig it out, I recall in Man Made Mobile there were letters from Kearney? or some other dragoon officer ca. 1833 complaining that the saddles then employed by the US dragoons were not holding up well on their campaigns. It seems the English type underpadding was wearing out and causing the saddles to fit improperly. Once the underpadding is shot all you can do is rip it out unless you have a saddler trained in restuffing them. Of course the M33 is an entirely different story and direction from the one we're headed in here, but it does relate because of the underpadding issues, that and some contend the M33 was in fact an English saddle!

I'm gonna go crawl back into my antebellum hole now!:)

[Ken Knopp]

Re: english saddles

Scott, nice job encapsulating the east vs west saddle question! If I could, may I echo/add a point to Hank’s excellent comments?.....

Q: “That brings up another good point concerning period English saddles. In the period, it seems that English saddles were generally ridden without extra blankets underneath, while today they're almost always ridden with a blanket or extra pad. As just one example, note that the modern image of the English saddle in this thread above shows a blanket under it, while the period painting of the saddled horse for sale shows none. It wasn't 100% of course--I'm sure one could find some period images of English saddles with blankets--but definitely a trend that's changed today.”

How true! Many but not all English saddles of the period came with pads underneath to facilitate the saddle blanket. These type saddles were normally not utilitarian but made for the pleasure riding trade and there fore comfort- not much on durability.

Q: “Other than roping cattle (which is a big thing of course), what were westerners using their saddles for that easterners weren't? Or was there a reason that westerners did some tasks mounted, that easterners did on foot?

For example, I'm not sure what I said that horns were useful for, other than roping, unless you mean skidding logs. But the logging industry was thriving in the east with its own equipment since the colonial days, and I'm not sure a horn would be an improvement for skidding logs all day, compared to a harness meant for the job.”

Other than to “hang” things off of....one big consideration for the use of the horn was a place to rest the rifle which in the west, always needed to be close at hand. Beyond the obvious, period photos, etc. I have observed many period saddles with wear marks on the top of the horn or pommel indicating such usage and....several old shotguns and rifles with complimentary wear on the forestock. Perhaps just as important, the extended bars of the rawhide covered Spanish-influenced (horned and otherwise) saddles left room for posting rings in which to carry other items such as canteens, bed rolls, etc. In addition to durability, the general design of the English tree and its low pommel did not suit itself well to either of these needs.

Great thread!

Ken R Knopp

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: english saddles

Hallo!

Excellent points, complicated or confounded by trying to find the evolutionary benchmarks in Time when what has evolved over time in the 19th century and 20th century gets "codified" enough to make it into the
formal manuals and riding masters' lessons.

For example, the evolution of drift between form and function, and form and purpose. As seen in the evolution of the saddle when fox hunting and the need for jumping went one direction while the "cowboy" saddle went in another.

Or possibly with the flat saddle-seat that seems to have co-evolved with a need for the rider to sit further back to show off the front leg action of show or flashy horses on Sunday rides. Or more close to home, the "plantation" master showing off his gaited horse while riding across his estate.

And out of the practice(s) as well as the function and use, comes the teaching of the style or form.

Curt
Who maintains that a back saddle or saddle seat is just a flat leather pad Mess

;)

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

Saddlers in St. Louis began producing their own versions of the saddles and as I'm sure you are aware, hybrid "Spanish" type saddles as well. It seems to me the reason the basic design was so popular was due mainly to it's rugged build and the fact that folks going West needed a solid platform to work from (as you've noted, the horn has uses other than roping).

Folks back East that were riding for pleasure or just for transportation would have continued riding englsih style saddles while folks in the Southwest and West, who were working off their horses backs would have prefered a solid built rawhide covered tree.

Other than roping cattle (which is a big thing of course), what were westerners using their saddles for that easterners weren't? Or was there a reason that westerners did some tasks mounted, that easterners did on foot?

For example, I'm not sure what I said that horns were useful for, other than roping, unless you mean skidding logs. But the logging industry was thriving in the east with its own equipment since the colonial days, and I'm not sure a horn would be an improvement for skidding logs all day, compared to a harness meant for the job.

still carry over the problematic underpadding that was prone to falling apart under heavy use on the trail and some still used the weaker trees (from what I understand) built along the same lines as the English tree

That brings up another good point concerning period English saddles. In the period, it seems that English saddles were generally ridden without extra blankets underneath, while today they're almost always ridden with a blanket or extra pad. As just one example, note that the modern image of the English saddle in this thread above shows a blanket under it, while the period painting of the saddled horse for sale shows none. It wasn't 100% of course--I'm sure one could find some period images of English saddles with blankets--but definitely a trend that's changed today.

It never made sense to me, since a blanket protects the underside of the saddle from sweat and salt and can be changed when it wears out, rather than having the saddle repaired, so I can see why the switch to the modern/western way of doing it occurred. I wonder what the logic was in the period? Just habit? Was the underside of a saddle really less expensive to repair than a new blanket?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Outrider]

Re: english saddles

I believe Scott just hit the nail on the head . The only thing I might add was that after the war with Mexico those Spanish saddles/training methods /riding styles found their way east and south and found a home here too at least among men making a living on horseback.
I agree with you to Hank in that I have , among too many others, an english rig I enjoy riding in once in a while and have done many a trail ride with it and even on some of the steep trails we have around here and have never had any problems at all" sticking the seat" or anything. I particularly like it in Summer when its hot but I agree with Scott about the possible source for the prejiduces on both sides of the disciplines. It would seem to me , as someone who has been in and around both worlds and those inhabiting them, that, as I see it, in the Western riding world , English types are often seen as tending toward being elitist dandies and "horse snobs" while on the other hand, In the English riding world, western riders are often thought of as being sloppy, lazy and undisciplined riders. Its funny to me. There are elements of truth in both viewpoints but at the same time just another generalization as are all prejiduces.
I also tend to think it may have much to do with the different types of horse required for the different jobs at hand .For example even now an eastern fox hunter has as little use for a short stocky cow horse as a rancher , working cattle for a living, has for a 17hd European warmblood. Kind of like a Ford man looks down on a Chevy man and vice versa. But that just my opinion. It really would be interesting to find the same thing occuring in the mid 19th century. I certainly suspect there was plenty of it.

To think too that this is just as it relates to America now and possibly then and not to mention all the wrangling over what tack , training methods etc were better among the Spanish and other European "schools" even before there were colonies here.
Anyway, apologies fellas for bringing even more conjecture and modern references into the discussion :o

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

Mr. Trent,

This is not anchored in 19th century documentation so take it with a grain of salt BUT it seems one's feelings on an English style saddle would differ depending on their geographic location as well as their emphasis on equine uses.

The "Spanish" saddle became an instant hit with early explorers, trappers and trading parties coming back from the Southwest and West riding them. Saddlers in St. Louis began producing their own versions of the saddles and as I'm sure you are aware, hybrid "Spanish" type saddles as well. It seems to me the reason the basic design was so popular was due mainly to it's rugged build and the fact that folks going West needed a solid platform to work from (as you've noted, the horn has uses other than roping). The hybrid saddles have the overall look of a "Spanish" rig but still carry over the problematic underpadding that was prone to falling apart under heavy use on the trail and some still used the weaker trees (from what I understand) built along the same lines as the English tree. Eventually the rawhide covered trees and working horns took hold and became entrenched in the portions of the Anglo cultures that used them. Folks back East that were riding for pleasure or just for transportation would have continued riding englsih style saddles while folks in the Southwest and West, who were working off their horses backs would have prefered a solid built rawhide covered tree.

It would be interesting to find some quotes from the early to mid 19th century regarding this shift in saddle patterns and the possible prejudices against them. Of course there are prejudices against different rigs of Western styled saddles and which one is more manly to use over the other, at least among vaqueros, but most of what I've seen there tends to be later 19th century and is out of the scope of this argument altogether!

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

I think Both Chris and Hank make excellent points. I tend to agree with Hank about that whole foward riding thing being "modern" but mostly I agree with Larry that I have never been able to see an english saddle from any period or listen to all that talk of saddles and seat positions that english riders tend to do so much with out always thinking (at least to myself) "yeah but can you rope a cow on that thing?" " Or drag logs out of the woods with that saddle?"

I remember when I first went trail riding (modern) with a new group of people. They told me that you couldn't trail ride on an English saddle. I didn't get it. Needless to say, I did just fine since I always trail-rode in an English saddle, and in fact found one advantage, that I could duck lower under branches without a horn poking me in the stomach. They were genuinely surprised that I could keep up on the hills and rough terrain.

Obviously one needs a horn for roping, or a breastcollar and a way to hitch something to drag logs. But even beyond that, apparently there really is a strong prejudice against English saddles as being saddles for sissies or for the show-ring only.

I wonder if that was true in the 1860s also, or if it was something that came about after the big focus on the western cowboy era in the late 19th and 20th century?

Edited to add: I too think this whole thread has been (and still is) a good conversation. I was looking at some period horsemanship manuals after my last post, and found it interesting how even then, people were arguing over what was best, though I couldn't find any advice other than to keep your body perpendicular with the ground upon landing after a jump. This is an interesting article on military equitation, and the author's personal gripes about it, in 1835.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Longrope]

Re: english saddles

I must say that I really like this "rope a cow" talk. Shows the proper spirit. But I wish to drag the thread back to the Custer photo, because isn't that Pleasonton with him, rather than Kilpatrick?

[Outrider]

Re: english saddles

I think Both Chris and Hank make excellent points. I tend to agree with Hank about that whole foward riding thing being "modern" but mostly I agree with Larry that I have never been able to see an english saddle from any period or listen to all that talk of saddles and seat positions that english riders tend to do so much with out always thinking (at least to myself) "yeah but can you rope a cow on that thing?" " Or drag logs out of the woods with that saddle?" But then the good news for guys like us Larry is there were surely plenty of fellas in the period who felt the same way about it. Military applications aside, I believe therein lies the difference between a working rider and a recreational rider wether it be in the 1860's or now. Both are valid yet totally different mindsets and approaches to riding/horses.

I really dont have anything to add other than that but a good discussion for me nonetheless . I always enjoy any discussions about period horsemanship especially if it has relevance outside of the cavalry ranks as I believe that should be just as important for someone portraying a cav trooper as knowing all about the saddles, weapons ,etc. they may have been issued AFTER jineing up ... IMHO.
Carry On!