english saddles

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

This would be either a large jump downhill after this obstacle or TOO far behind ala "classical":

Again, it should be more centered, like this:

Not sure I understand what you're saying. When you say "should," yes, we now know that's what one should do to achieve the best performance and least injury. But our mindset has changed. Caprilli, among others, changed it, and eventually saddles changed along with it. That's my point.

If one looks at period or late 19th century paintings or drawings of horsemen jumping, one typically sees the vertical or backward lean of the torso, with the feet ahead of the hips. Just a few quick examples, here, here. It's in virtually every image from the period. To them, it seemed normal and a pretty-enough jump that you'd want to hang a picture of someone doing it on your wall.

But times have changed. You can do that in a center-balanced saddle; you can do it easily in a modern hunter-jumper saddle. In a saddle-seat saddle, plantation saddle, or other saddle not balanced for centered or forward-seat riding, not so easy.

I've also ridden in many CW saddles over the years, some seats more shallow than others, but again...the leg position and posture can still be straight and slightly forward. Would you consider Custer in this photograph to be "forward"?? He's clearly riding a mid-19th century military saddle!... Kilpatrick just has BAD posture!:

I think you're taking what I said the reverse way around. I totally agree that center-balanced saddles existed; centered riding (dressage) existed. What didn't exist was forward seat, which is what modern hunter-jumper saddles are designed for.

Military saddles and equitation are deeply derived in dressage, which is THE best training and style you can learn for both man and horse to take on riding cross country, at speed, and in the hunt field.

Compare modern images of hunting and jockeys with period ones, and I think you'll see that things have changed. For example, the hunting links above, or this and this.

I'd propose that the change is due to the introduction of forward-seat riding in the early 20th century. A change in the balance of saddles followed suit, so modern hunter-jumper English saddles are balanced to encourage forward seat.

Are you saying that nothing's changed in hunting riding styles in the last 150 years, or that it's due to another cause?

What exactly about this saddle would make it completely wrong to use in a ACW period living history scenario? To my untrained eye, it looks very close to some of the period images already posted in this thread. I know nothing about a forward seat, backward seat or no seat at all.

My answer would be the same kind of thing that makes that saddle different from this modern saddle-seat saddle. One could tell mainly tell by sitting in it.

When a person sits in a modern hunt-seat saddle, the balance of the tree naturally encourages a forward seat. It's why people don't ride hunt-seat saddles in the saddle-seat showring today.

A center-balanced saddle, like a period McClellan or modern western saddle or dressage saddle, makes a variety of riding styles comfortable.

A non-forward-seat English saddle, like what this person is riding, or older plantation saddle or older generic English saddle, naturally discourage forward seat, and encourage a seat more like what one often sees in period images, with the legs forward of hips. But that's just my opinion.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: english saddles

Okay, I'll be the first to admit that when I see these saddles, the first thing that pops into my head is "how in the world are you going to be able to stop a cow in that thing?". But I guess that's the difference in my western mentality and those of you back east who obviously know way more about horses and riding than I do. So I'm going to attempt to keep this simple so the unlearned like myself can hopefully gain some knowledge...

Using only the picture of the modern English saddle that Chris just posted for reference. What exactly about this saddle would make it completely wrong to use in a ACW period living history scenario? To my untrained eye, it looks very close to some of the period images already posted in this thread. I know nothing about a forward seat, backward seat or no seat at all.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

I hear what you're saying, but must slightly disagree. I think you're confusing the stretch between "classic English" and "modern English" with the much larger differences between "western" and "classic/modern English".

I was specifically referring to the basic concept, pattern and design of the saddle and tree. Even look at his headstall and particularly that bit in the William Sidney Mount painting...it has the cheek pieces so many still use today on an English snaffle.

Dressage saddles are the closest modern equivalent to "period" saddles in my opinion with the deeper seat and straighter leg. In fact, dressage is the basis for classic military equitation throughout the early 19th and into the 20th century. Polo saddles are much "flatter", shallow, and with little to no knee roll and ride like you think of as "classical". That's been my experience anyway while playing in Argentina.

I know riding styles differ now, but honestly...not as much as you think they have to. I foxhunt regularly and ride a somewhat "hybrid" between a modern and classic English seat...as one, when going over obstacles, should merely "give" at the waist with the hands low and quiet. Kind of like this photo:

With a more forward skirt in today's saddles, this really accomplishes all that Caprilli set out to achieve. I, personally think today, many riders OVER-exaggerate the "forward" seat and stand up on those horses necks when going over an obstacle...entirely off-balance in the opposite direction. I guess, though...its better to be forward, than to get "left"!!

In one of the photos in the link you provided, his leg is actually too far back IMO and he should have a more balanced seat. In fact, that photo shows where a leg position would more likely be for jumping an obstacle at speed...like jump jockeys or jumping uphill.


This would be either a large jump downhill after this obstacle or TOO far behind ala "classical":

Again, it should be more centered, like this:


I've also ridden in many CW saddles over the years, some seats more shallow than others, but again...the leg position and posture can still be straight and slightly forward. Would you consider Custer in this photograph to be "forward"?? He's clearly riding a mid-19th century military saddle! I see him as merely centered and slightly forward actually and if he were to jump an obstacle...simply would have to give at the waist to get off that horses back. Kilpatrick just has BAD posture!:


Here's my modern Berney Bros. hunt saddle. Note the deeper seat with slightly swept forward skirts. This can still be ridden comfortably with a straight posture and neither too long or too short a stirrup length. Does "deep seat" equal "classic" style in your opinion???


I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've ridden 19th century saddles, military, western, modern polo, and hunt saddles and though each are different...the basic design for English saddles (18th, 19th, 20th century civilian, dressage, modern hunt, racing, polo, etc.) leave only adjustment in my opinion. The idea and basic design are the same.

Military saddles and equitation are deeply derived in dressage, which is THE best training and style you can learn for both man and horse to take on riding cross country, at speed, and in the hunt field. This, of course...naturally extends on up through the military's influence over modern equitation starting in the early 20th century through today, but is based on "classic" equitation in the 18th and 19th century.

I think the deep-seated "plowdriving" that's kind of western that I see so many reenactors use to balance an otherwise poor seat is what you're confusing with a "classic" seat. Can you imagine any of those guys going over anything???!!!

Long way to say that I think we may be discussing two separate issues.

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

How's this for an English saddle. Painted in 1835 by William Sidney Mount, it shows two farmers on Long Island trying to horse deal. Think I'll have to go check out this American Stories: Paintings of Everyday Life, 1765-1915 exhibition at the Met this weekend.

Doesn't get any clearer or straight forward than that. As I'm always reminded...if it isn't broke...

Except it was "broke." The forward seat hadn't been developed yet, and jumping/racing starting improving quickly when it was.

The outside of the saddle looks about the same, but have you tried to sit one of those things?

When I learned to ride, it was in modern English saddles, the modern English way. Bad choice. I still have trouble adjusting to a period seat, even more so now that I'm out of practice for both styles, since you tend to revert to what you first learned.

I've ridden briefly and carefully in two different original English saddles (19th or possibly very early 20th century, similar to the one in the painting) and very little of modern English riding applied, since they weren't balanced for forward seat. It was almost impossible to sit with a forward seat or do any of the normal hunter-jumper things the modern way.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

How's this for an English saddle. Painted in 1835 by William Sidney Mount, it shows two farmers on Long Island trying to horse deal. Think I'll have to go check out this American Stories: Paintings of Everyday Life, 1765-1915 exhibition at the Met this weekend.

Doesn't get any clearer or straight forward than that. As I'm always reminded...if it isn't broke...

http://www.metmuseum.org/special/ame...px?oid=0&sid=3

[Lance Stifle]

Re: english saddles

If any of you can get a copy of the book "Horses and Saddlery" MAJ G. Tylden, 1965; chapter four "Riding Saddles of the Regular British Army until 1890" gives a good description of the saddle type you're discussing.

Let me know if you're interested in any extracted passages.

Cheers
Lance Stifle.

[Lance Stifle]

Re: english saddles

Hello Old South
the saddle you've got is an old style English Jockey saddle, theyre still made and commonly used for morning track work over here in the land of Oz.

I'm unsure of the dating on the one you've shown though.

The stirrup leather should be outside of the slot and on top of the flap (skirt)to enable a free swinging action; the slot is meant to be for a surcingle to go up around the seat and disappear under the flap.


Cheers
Lancelot Stifle.

what do you all think of this saddle? It looks like the stirrup is forward of the hip. It has a skirt cut I have not seen before.

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: english saddles

I like that saddle with the USMC markings on it.

Yeah, well we have to take the good with the bad... or in this case the period with the non-period! I didn't feel like cutting and pasting every period picture, so it was easier to just link over to horsetopia... Most of us in here should know a Whitman isn't Civil War, so...
TEH

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

Mr. Knopp,

Thanks for your reply! I've always liked the lines and in particular(for some reason) the long square skirts of the wagon drivers saddles. I already have a beautiful reproduction of an early to mid 19th century English style saddle made by Mr. Lilie but if I ever purchase another saddle I may well go back to Stuart for a wagon drivers saddle! Thanks again, I always enjoy seeing your informative and knowledgeable replies.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: english saddles

Sir,

Q: My question may be a bit "dumb", but were these Wagon Driver's saddles used specifically by wagon drivers or were they ridden as an everyday saddle by simple country folk circa mid 19th century?

A: This is just my reasoned opinion but in short, like anything else in those days and alot today....one improvises and uses what is available. The wagon saddle had a design for use on postillion type wagon driving (ala' artillery/quartermaster, etc.) with the long skirts to protect the riders legs (and the horse) but could and surely was, used for general riding as needed. They were a very common pattern dating back to the 18th century with little substantive change until after the war by the catalog companies. In the early war (before Southern manufacturing became common), the Confederacy improvised whatever they could get their hands on in the way of saddles by purchasing many different patterns from harness shops and saddle makers all across the country. Such would be the same for the recruit heading to war or the (later in the war) veteran needing a saddle to ride.
The wagon saddle pictured in the link is an early and certainly pre-war version using an English tree. Its pattern of seat and cantle is likely early to mid 19th century (1800's) or maybe earlier. It would still be a commonly seen saddle of our period.
Only a couple of people are reproducing these wagon saddles right now. Stuart Lillie is one and does a first class job (in my opinion) of constructing the leather applications and properly building the under pads. My understanding right now is that another person is working with him to make a fair number of these type saddles as reproductions even copying the correct stirrup patterns but made for a modern foot. I am not at liberty to say more than I know right now but they watch this forum so will leave it to them to comment.

PS: I have a couple of them on my site in the photo galleries for those that want to look ...

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

Ken R Knopp

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

My question may be a bit "dumb", but were these Wagon Driver's saddles used specifically by wagon drivers or were they ridden as an everyday saddle by simple country folk circa mid 19th century?

[forrestcav]

Re: english saddles

I like that saddle with the USMC markings on it.

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: english saddles

Just a quick thought... this was a discussion i followed earlier in the year it's off site but it has some cool saddles...

http://forum.horsetopia.com/tack-apparel-equipment/113084-assistance-needed-antique-saddles.html

later, TEH

[Old-South]

Re: english saddles

what do you all think of this saddle? It looks like the stirrup is forward of the hip. It has a skirt cut I have not seen before.

[lesterschumacher]

Re: english saddles

Ken....

Taking very good care of the saddle. Would love to see the other one.

Lester

Lester Schumacher