Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

[dixieflyer]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

Our registration forms got printed out yesterday, just awaiting word on who is organizing companies and/or word from those that are. I'm not going to sign up with a company without someone's permission. ;)

"This is going to be GREAT!!" - Flounder

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

At the outbreak of war, Tennessee had in its arsenals:

10,161 Muskets and Rifles (1,680 Percussion - 8,481 Flintlocks) of which 4,300 were unserviceable.
350 Carbines
4 Field Artillery Pieces
(Stanley Horn - Tennessee's War, 1861-1865, 1965 p. 19)
Where The South Lost The War: Kendal Gott - p. 3

John Walsh

This is form research Jerry Hughes has been doing:

'I'm going through microfilm for the Military Board and the Adjutant General records to see if I can any specifics on the types of weapons in the Tennessee arsenals in the fall of 1861. I did find some telegraphs to New Orleans inquiring about purchasing 5000 to 6000 percussion hammers for 69 calibre and suitable cones. I also found where they purchased 2000 mess kits for $21, but no description of them. I'll let you know if I find anything."

Which would indicate that there were perhaps 5-6000 Model 16/22s in Tn. Arsenals that were likely designated (or in the process) to be converted to percussion use during the Fall of 1861. With such information, (and lacking any other guidance at this time) I'd like to see .69's as the weapon of choice for the 48th Tn.

[Daniel]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

This is what I could document regarding the small arms at Fort Henry.
First Brigade – Col. Heiman
10th Tenn Inf. – Flintlock muskets “The best equipped regiment of his command…was armed with old flintlock ‘Tower of London’ muskets that had ‘done the state some service in the War of 1812.”
27th Ala. Inf. – shotguns and bowie knives
48th Tenn Inf. – shotguns and Tennessee rifles

Second Brigade - Col. Joseph Drake
4th Miss. Inf. – unknown
15th Ark. Inf. - unknown
51st Tenn Inf.- shotguns “inefficient arms in the shape of double barreled guns”
3rd Ala Battalion (Gavin) - unknown
Cavalry – Heiman wrote “None of the cavalry had either sabers or pistols, and were only partly armed with double-barreled shot-guns, no other equipments whatever.”

This event will be challenging to us. Not very many of us have shotguns, flintlocks or Tennessee rifles. Also as noted earlier in this thread, even if we did have those types of weapons the park service will allow only precussion muskets for firing demos. Perhaps we could have an "indifferently arm" company with flintlocks, shotguns and Tennessee rifles. I am thinking about carrying my M1816 flintlock at least on the march.

Dan Stewart

[dixieflyer]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

Ahhh, the joys of picking a unit first, and then living with the research results you find out later. :)

Dan, you are right, this is going to be a challenge. I know that researching Donelson and in particular Tenn. units at Donelson has been your baby for many years. So, do we:

- Go with what we have, and ask people to acquire shotguns, rifles, flintlocks, etc.?

- Change the unit(s) portrayed to better fit what people already have in terms of weapons/equipment?

- Just forge ahead with the chosen unit to portray, and carry percussion alteration M1816's, M1842's, Enfields,* etc. anyway and chalk the inaccuracy up to realizing reenacting is an imperfect science/avocation and modern realities and economics demand some accommodation at times?

**Thing is, we know that there were units there with percussion alteration M1816's, etc., it's just a matter of which units were they?

I am curious as to why the ban on flintlocks for public demonstrations? Surely there are other NPS sites having to do with the AR and War of 1812 that do flintlock musket and rifle demos, so I don't think it is an NPS-wide ban.

Thoughts?

[Daniel]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

Warren, My main thought is that I am glad we have good people like John Walsh and company commanders like Brian Hicks making these types of decisions. I am glad I will be a private in the ranks. But you asked me some questions so this is what I think. IMHO I think is impossible to do a correct Fort Henry infantry unit because our weapons are much better than what those units ,that we know about, had. When one account gives the 10th Tenn as the best arm (flintlock musket) unit at Fort Henry then our M1842s look pretty darned good. Most of us living historians lack a shotgun, Tennessee rifle or a Brown Bess. It would be nice to see a whole company with flintlocks or shotguns but that is not going to happen. So going with what we have is probably the best. I do not think anyone should think about going out and buying a shotgun or flintlock for one event. I think everyone should do their best with what they have. And that is what reflected in John's guidlines. Still when I choose a company I will probably ask permission to carry a flintlock to at least get a sense and lend a bit of atmosphere to the Fort Donelson march.

I think there are plenty of opportunities to create a sense of what these units were like even without the correct arms. With the exception of the 10th Tenn and 4th Miss Inf. most of the units at Fort Henry were new units. These units were formed in the December of 1861 and January of 1862. I doubt that there were many band box soldiers. Those were probably pretty well gone by the winter of 61/62. So I think the guidlines are right on the money for frocks and cilvian sack coats. And I like John's mentioning that people will be allowed to use black trimming on trousers and kepis if they want to.

I kind of wonder what regiments the other two companies will represent. The big question that I have about the units at Fort Henry is was the 4th Mississppi like? Having done the 2nd Miss at Manassas I wonder with their brother unit was like. What type of arms and uniforms they had? According to accounts, besides the 10th Tennessee they were the only other unit that was ready for service.

And finally I know the 3rd Tennessee which was at Fort Donelson (not Fort Henry) had percussion muskets.

Dan Stewart

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

The assortment of weapons are one aspect of what makes this campaign so interesting. The 50th Tennessee, which was officially mustered in on December 25th, 1861 and stationed within the fort had several types of weapons - as relflected on a sheet from the Col. On there is listed Mississippi rifles, Flintlocks, Country Rifles, Percussion Muskets, and Shotguns. With the exception of the 10th Tennessee, the 2nd Kentucky and maybe few other units, most likely from Floyd's units, we can say with certainty that they were 90% equiped throughout with different types of weapons. Especially those whose companies would be formed locally, then would muster in at one location for example. Company D (Stewart County, TN) of the 50th would muster in at Fort Donelson during September of 61 - But Company C of that same regiment mustered in during that same month in Montgomery, Alabama, more than likely recieving different types of weapons.

What's even more intriguing is that most of the Federal Army was here with a majority of 2nd and 3rd Class Weapons as well, including large caliber imported weapons.

All in all - as eluded too, in earlier posts, Jerry and I crafted the guidlines to encompass all units represented during the withdrawl from Henry and so that the participant had options. As Mr. Hicks pointed out - he has strongly recommended .69cal for his company. That too allows room. I can tell you first hand the majority of small arms ammunition dug in and around Dover are - .71, .69, .58 Roundballs - .69cal Minnies. Of course other munitions are recovered to many to list here.


John Walsh

[Jerry Ross]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

Fellas,
We have an assortment of weapons to choose from as of right now . We are looking at filling Mr. Hicks company first and then we will start working on the other company. We understand the numbers game and reenactors math equation that goes with it. We don't want too many Chiefs and not enough Indians. There should be about 30 men to a company with a few extras to count for last minute dropouts.

The event is capped at 100 men for infantry. Teamsters and Cavalry will be added beyond the 100 total, but will not overload different government agencies wishes or our logistics. We are hoping the wagons can carry the tents for a hundred men. We don't want anyone with out shelter this time of the year. The weather can get nasty in February.

Flintlocks- I personally hope to see them in the field. Fort Donelson has not worked with them at living history programs and are not comfortable using them for the public demos. Each park is different. I have been working for years to just get horses on the park.

I hope this helps in some way.

Jerry

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

Registrations are coming in - thanks to those who have registered thus far. You will be recieving an email shortly as confirmation of reciept.

John Walsh

[Jerry Ross]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

Here is a cool picture of the Federals view of Fort Henry battle.Document (2)..jpg I found this wood cut while traveling in Springfield,Massachusetts.Enjoy.

[VA-Patriot'61]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

All the discussion about Flintlocks not being allowed to fire during demonstrations at Ft. Donelson had me thinking... I believe, from the numerous NPS sites I've worked with over the years that they would need someone on staff or on lend from another site that has a certification in 18th century/early 19th century blackpowder weapons. The Park Rangers have a school they can attend but there are several levels and time periods each one is focused on.

I can't speak in depth on this but I think that might end up being their biggest concern: Not having a Ranger certified and experienced with Flintlocks. I know it sounds silly but they are usually pretty good about keeping safety up front and inspecting weapons, as we all know from experience. The only way I could think to be able to work towards allowing Flintlocks to fire during the demo is seeing if a Ranger can be "loaned" from an 18th century site that has the certification and experience, never hurts to ask the staff there.

Just a thought,

[dixieflyer]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

Kirby, in speaking with someone this past weekend at Perilous Times, that is indeed the case as I am led to understand it. Fort Donelson does not have someone certified or with experience firing flintlocks. The emphasis at NPS CW sites has always been, naturally enough, on percussion weapons, and their safety program is built around that.
No big deal I say, there should be enough of us there with percussion arms to be able to do a firing demo.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

We ran into this problem when the Independent Rifles, along with Jerry, put on the Living History there in 2006. And while I'm still up in the air about attendance now I will go ahead and say the same thing I said to people back then. Are you there to participate as a member of a military organization, or are you there to walk around with a flintlock. If you're going to better quality events, and the site guidelines say no flintlocks, then help the organizers out and just pack something else in. They also have a certain number of people per ranger than can participate in each firing demo. I think last time it was 15. And of all 4 firing demos we did, I think there were 3 people there to watch, and that was the new Super of the park and his two boys.

[Old Reb]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

February at Donelson usually dictates one to be less concerned about what firearm they are toting but how to free their frozen fingers from said firearm.

[Jerry Ross]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

Thanks fellas, I want us to see all the types of weapons thereat the event. The small part of the demo at the park is firing for the public. If we will have a good mix of weapons I will be happy! Just some of you will not fire at that time.Again thank you for thinking about these concerns and start thinking about staying warm in Feb.

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Withdrawing to Fort Donelson-Feb 9-12, 2012

To address the flintlock & shotgun issue - yes those can be brought and carried, however, as mentioned percussion muskets will only be allowed by Park Service during firing demonstrations. This is their rule, not mine. Do I think its necessarily a bad one, no.

Regarding the number of men in the firing lines - this has been addressed as well, so there will be no limitation on that.

Also - Fort Donelson has gone through several changes in the last few years with new rangers coming into the park with enthusiasm and ideas. This enthusiasm is what has changed what was going to be just a typical 'living history' event to a now - 'living experience' event (you heard it here first :) ) As many on this forum know and have experience with the NPS, their plan for the 150th activities as a government organization have been more screwed up than I've ever seen. Its gone from a NPS driven plan, down to a regional plan, to in this case, a Park Driven plan. Most of the money has gone to "Signature Events" such as Fort Sumter, Gettysburg, etc. Smaller parks are getting funding for activities, but it pales in comparison to what these other events are getting. This is why is being driven by us for us.

We wanted to put this event together as an opportunity to give the re-enactor a unique experience and shed light on a campaign that often is overlooked by both historians and the NPS (as a whole). As Mr. Hicks mentioned in one of his posts, we want this to be more of an inclusive event rather than exclusive, meaning that we have designed this to be a EBUFU event because we knew the type of living historian on this forum would be the ones to show up rain, sleet, snow, etc. Whether you show up with a flintlock, shotgun, etc it does not matter as long as what you show up in is authentic and within the guidelines (which are pretty broad and represent all of the units that left Henry). As Mr. Hicks added was that we want you to bring the right state of mind. Once dropped off at the 'Henry' location - you will not have access to anything modern, only what you bring in. As event organizers, we can only offer so much of the experience, the rest of it depends on the individual.

We are going to have a good time, and I am personally excited to see all that have registered so far. If you have not done so, I encourage that you get signed up now. Feel free to post questions on here or email myself or Jerry Ross. Thankyou to everyone who is supporting this endeavor whether it be in spirit or in person !!

John Walsh