Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

I don't know about you guys, but it is raining here. After Mass, I took the boys out on the four-wheelers and we really got muddy...and boy was it fun. Looking over the cows I thought about how much the cattle bussiness has changed over the past ten years.

At one time there were cattle famers who would only raise Polled Hereford and there were cattle farmers who would only raise Black Angus. Both are good breed of cattle, but the farmers of each breed use to be in so much competition with each other. Until the market changed, then they had to work together. Now we have "Black Baldies"...black cows with white faces.

Do you know where I am headin on this? Change in any type is scary to some people. To some people change means losing control. I have seen the uniform in the Army change SEVEN times. The Uniform was not the only thing that changed. People, Missions, Organizations changed with the Uniform. Look at the Brigade Combats Teams, they use to be Divisions, but the need changed, MUCH LIKE OUR SITUATION.

GOSH can you imagine how hard it is for those Soldiers and Marines trying to create and train a Iraqi Army?

We are going to survive, I myself feel so very lucky to be apart of a UNIT like the 16th LA INF who has decided to get back to the basics.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

I get the idea of not organizing events too close together. Makes sense. If there are two good events on the same weekend, I can't go to both, no matter how much I'd want to. If they're within a week of each other, it's possible, but harder. A couple weeks is still an issue. So it's good for organizers to coordinate their plans. No argument there.

But I'm getting the sense that this discussion is trickling down farther than that, down to individual reenactors.

Maybe the dynamic is different on the military side of the hobby, but what I don't get is forming larger organizations to increase event attendance. Suppose that I, the lowest tier of reenactor, a private or civilian, join one. What changes for me? I don't mean literally just "me" here. I'm trying to put myself in anyone's shoes and see how it looks to them.

--Does it get me into good events I couldn't attend otherwise? Okay, that'd be good, but it would require a change from the way things are now. No more individual registrations or registrations from four guys in a mess. You'd need to lock out c/p/h reenactors from good events unless they joined the larger group, and I'm not sure whether that would help or hurt total numbers.

--Or does it put pressure on me to attend events I wouldn't want to otherwise? Not good. Why would I (or anyone) join a group that pressures me to do things I don't want to do--or can't do because of real-life commitments--when I'm already attending exactly what I want right now?

Yes, it would be good for those already attending an event and for event organizers if there were standing organizations that pressured more members to attend more events. But what incentive is there for an individual to become a member and endure that pressure?

I'm leaning toward what Bill said:

No event, on any level of authenticity, is going to please all reenactors. That's just a fact of life and is not going to change. If you design an event that has something reenactors want, they will come. It doesn't matter if we are talking the local peach festival or the most authentic event in the past thirty years, held on an actual battlefield. It's as simple as that. Today, with the increasing cost of travel, people need to really want to attend your event. They sure aren't going to show up because their "leadership" told them to.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Cfarrell]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

After reading Dale's post I pulled an old dusty copy of the Campaigner Manifesto from my shelf. I printed this back in 2003 and while then I had read over it and agreed with it, I tucked it away in a folder where it remained until now. On the front page I saw this:

I could not help but notice the effort underway to organize "campaigners" in the East. This led me to think about the nature of the campaigner (hardcore, serious, progressive, or whatever....) movement in general. It occurred to me that formulation a statement of principles upon which serious Civil War living history enthusiasts could agree might be productive. So I wrote "The Campaigner's Manifesto" as a draft of such a statement. I trust it will provoke discussion. I hope that it will stimulate constructive thought. Perhaps it will help move living history to a more realistic and rewarding level. I will be pleased if people choose to adhere to it, and I challenge myself to do a better job of living up to this standard. Persons interested in the topic are free to distribute this document as they see fit. If the best use of it turns out to be as lining for birdcages - so be it.

Nicky Hughes

I think that already this thread has done a world of good. I believe it has brought something's to light. But as I've said before, "There many more voices to be heard."

[Bill]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

Mods, feel free to delete this message if you feel it's not appropriate.

As Charles Heath likes to say, there are 350 committed CPH reenactors in the Country. I am not one of them; but I do attend CPH events. I attended W '64 and Glendale already this year and am registered for Bristoe Station and After the Battle this Fall. I'm a member of the Rowdy pards. Oh yeah, I'm also a Battalion Commander in the ANV and the overall Confederate Commander at Neshaminy. You don't get any more Mainstream than that!

Fact is, there are a lot of people out there, just like me. From what I've seen, at the CPH events I've attended, somewhere between 20 and 30% of the participants are "fence sitters".

A lot of you like to talk about the two hobbies. I see it a little differently. From my perspective, there are reenactors and a bunch of events with varying degrees of authenticity. As was mentioned earlier, you can't make a reenactor attend an event he doesn't want to attend. I've tried and it doesn't work. One gentleman said he'd like to see reenactors organized like the Army. That's fine, except the Army has an advantage called Fort Leavenworth. If you decide not to attend one of their events, or drop out because you don't like your commander, the Army puts you in jail.

No event, on any level of authenticity, is going to please all reenactors. That's just a fact of life and is not going to change. If you design an event that has something reenactors want, they will come. It doesn't matter if we are talking the local peach festival or the most authentic event in the past thirty years, held on an actual battlefield. It's as simple as that. Today, with the increasing cost of travel, people need to really want to attend your event. They sure aren't going to show up because their "leadership" told them to. Those leaders are kidding themselves and event planners if they commit to attending an event without the prior approval of their membership.

There has been a lot of talk about deconfliction on this thread. That's fine and I suppose you could insure that none of the A-C's "Top Tier" events conflict. Other than that, I don't think there's a chance of eliminating conflicting events, and for people like me, that includes what's going on in the "Mainstream" side of the equation. I'm sure not many people on this forum ever heard of Ridley Creek, but it's important to me, my home unit, and the colonial plantation on site. This event is the week after the event that started this thread. There was no question concerning which event I'm attending.

Attendance is declining at all events, across the authenticity spectrum, for all the reasons that have already been discussed. Pointing fingers and placing blame doesn't help much. Now, if we could just figure out what to do about those reenactors who sign up for events and don't bother to show up. Man, talk about one big Hobby!

[MercyAngel62]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

Some thing else I thought about, some guys come to every event,some four times a year, a few get to once a year and they were trying their hardest to do that, and so on. Most of them want to be there just can't swing it for event X. Make it fun when they get there.Just be glad they came and thank them for coming.Contact the ones that did not make it and ask if every thing is OK? You know how life will change as your ready to walk out the door.(The Wife,Baby,job,car ,Mom ,Sister ,you name it.)
I would challenge you to do something to make the hobby better.
Be nice.

Jerry,

That has by far been the best post on this ever-so-long thread. Very positive and refreshing. ;)
Life happens.


Liz

[Jerry Ross]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

Oh this hobby.....
I have also been watching this thread like so many of you. I hosted a get together today at my house for some mainstream fellows who are still my friends despite that we think differently. There were new fellas,fellas who came out of retirement,fellas who were disgusted with the hobby,Fellas riding the wave. I was just having fun seeing people who locally started me in reenacting many years ago.The turn out was low,very low. I had four cannons parked outside of my house to play with at 8:30am and three horses to ride. The whole idea was to drill on the cannons, teach some people about cav, drill with the local infantry unit.Maybe show a few guys the dark side. We had about 15 total people show up .This was enough people to work only two of the guns . We did not get to teach about the horses or drill infantry. Everyone seemed to want to play with the guns, so we did .

Now my point
The man who made the most phone calls and was the most excited had the most people here . The man who made the least amount of phone call had the least amount of people .

CALL PEOPLE

MAKE SURE YOUR EXCITED ABOUT YOUR PROJECT

STAY POSITIVE

DO SOMETHING FUN

Just a few months ago we were all talking about how good was the last event. Just look back at the old post of event X. Ohhh it was the best ever see you and the next event X.

Some thing else I thought about, some guys come to every event,some four times a year, a few get to once a year and they were trying their hardest to do that, and so on. Most of them want to be there just can't swing it for event X. Make it fun when they get there.Just be glad they came and thank them for coming.Contact the ones that did not make it and ask if every thing is OK? You know how life will change as your ready to walk out the door.(The Wife,Baby,job,car ,Mom ,Sister ,you name it.) I have made the calls when I got home to check on the lost sheep.I have been the lost sheep when my Dad died the week before a event.

I would challenge you to do something to make the hobby better.
Be nice.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

Jim,
Good points, ever more the reason to "form a more perfect union"

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

As has been stated, ultimately, people attend events they personally desire to attend. There are some influencing factors such as proximity, friends attending, economy, gas prices, host unit, etc). SCAR votes on a schedule in November for the following year. Even within SCAR, each member mess has their own personal goals and agendas. Despite that we are still able to agreed on four events a year to support as a whole. Hosted events are planned about 1 to 1 1/2 years ahead of time. All attempts are made to avoid confliction while still filling the sites scheduling needs. The events selected may not be what I voted for, but I support that event becuase that is where my friends are going and that is where I want to be (this point being brought up as well). Othres may or may not agree with the SCAR schedule, but I believe the way it was selected serves the needs and desires of the members while still maintaining some framework of an organization with goals and direction.
In a larger scale, at Outpost 3, prior to the event, about 20 gentlemen met to discuss to formation of a new Federal battalion. A Chairman and 5 people were voted to a committe to discuss the possibilities. I believe that all the men at that meeting found similair common ground. However, I feel nothing came to fruition due to many of the reasons that are being raised in this thread. These reasons seem to be: 1) We are spread out geographically thin and far. 2) varying commitments had already been made to the 2008 calendar. 3) ever shrinking numbers in a worsening economy (could support a number of companies, but not enough for a battalion...especially once reenactor math kicks in). I believe the idea is still a good one and still viable in the right circumstances.
I believe many circumstance come into play when setting dates for events. I don't think anyone is intentionally conflicting. I just believe differing geographical groups have very differing agendas and variables influencing the events they support.

Jim Butler
SRR www.geocities.com/saltriverrifles
SCAR www.geocities.com/scar_civilwar

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

The past four or five threads have been good ones...lets keep building on these. I dont think we are dead either...just need a little push to make it another 10 years...or atleast until my boys are old enough to carry a rifle.

As far as a Mission Statement: how about this as a start...

We as a progressive reenactment community in order to form a more perfect union...

Help me here.....lets build a "Mission Statement" Lets build an Organization Chart which includes all regions, all Units, all those sectors of the community who want to build a more perfect union, with equal "say-so" with "equal votes" of those who want to build. Now as stated Rome was not built in a day, neither will we, but lets move FORWARD.

[Michael Comer]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

Call me an optimist but - I think we're going to do just fine. Because there are enough people who really enjoy this to keep it going, it will. Personally, I've had a good time this year and I think 2009 will be a very good year.

The only thing that will make this hobby either succeed or fail is ourselves and our attitudes plain and simple.

[Cfarrell]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

As Rome was not built in a day, neither did it fall!!!

I re-read over all these posts again, clicked on the refresh button and found Frank's post. I had wanted him to chime in and was happy to see when he had. As I have said before, and as I've heard from other's in this thread...can something be done? I do not have the number of years some do in this hobby, but I too have seen many things in my short 12 years. I have heard the rumblings many times on this forum and in the field. Many say it can not be done...many say it has been tried and it has failed. Perhaps.....and just perhaps as it is in mankind's nature to survive then also perhaps it is hardwired within us to fail.

But for myself I do not chose to believe this. I pondered for a while after Frank's post wondering why it is that every form of structure on our side of the hobby has failed to withstand the test of time. I began to draw comparisons to today and my earlier experiences in the hobby...then I broadened my thoughts to things outside our little world. The conclusion I then came up with was that maybe it is something caused from within…and instinct to separate. But being the optimist that I am...I was unable to except this as my answer. History books are filled with a number of instances in mankind’s past regarding their inability to succeed, but so too are they accompanied by their achievements as well.

The Articles of Confederation ratified in 1781 were replaced by the greatest document to grace this God’s green earth six years later. Even the founding father’s struggled at first.

So, can it be done...I say yes...for my part. Is there a willingness to try? For that I can not say. Company, Battalion, Brigade...the mess (clan's) are the building blocks. The one thing we as "authentic" re-enactors pride ourselves on is our ability to adapt...to read something in a book and apply it to our impression be that something in or on our kit or whatever. I don't believe the hobby is dead. I want to think it is growing, but if it was I don't know if I would be here writing this. What I do know and what I have quoted is that it is "stagnant!" We are neither moving forward nor backwards but rather trapped in a paradox where we are doomed to repeat our history because of our unwillingness to learn from our own arrogant mistakes.

[Bushrod Carter]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

Everyone should listen to Frank. He has some good insight and history in his post.

My pards and I left the old "Company" after a fall out over falling in with this new experimental unit called the Macon County Silver Grays. Actually the plan was to fall in with this new group and bring ideas back to the old company. We had tried to "cleanse from within" but things got hostile quickly for many sordid reasons but the bottom line was politics.

Yes. This seems to have happened to many "old school" company organizations. As eluded by Dale, this same thing happened to Cleburne's and other units. There were a few within the unit that wanted to keep the study any understanding of history alive, but the vast majority wanted to same ol' same ol' and wanted nothing more than to drink beer with good friend. Those that wanted to improve their impressions and their knowledge of history were seen as agitators. They were also declared undesirables because they didn’t blindly follow the direction of “the company.”

Part of the reason for the mess mentality, at least from the Skulker's Point of view, was that we could fall in with whomever, go where ever, not have to fight for what we wanted to get out of the hobby. …and best of all be free of all the politics we had so recently left.

These “Messes” dared to look outside the company to see if they truly could find something more in-depth than what they had been living. That desire to “do better” and get away from the structured command [to read “Politics”] of “the company” was the impetus behind the “Independent” and “Mess” phenomena of the mid and late 90s.

For years there was resistance for any attemps to form anything larger than a company with a few messes.

Very true. The Independents and Messes railed against traditional Company structure and organization. They had had enough.

Soon after the WIG pulled it off. I'd like to think it was because it didn't rain but then again I don't really remember when the WIG had their first event but I think it was at Shiloh.

The WIG came into being because there was a need to create a Confederate counterpart to the AoP. The need WAS organization and leadership. There were too many serious living historians with good kits, good attitudes, and WANTING to do good events to not make something happen. The concept of a “Campaigner Battalion” was discussed at Shaker Village in the summer of 2000 – as that was THE EVENT of quality that drew the serious living historians. The discussion was continued at the Hogg Mess’ LH at Shiloh a few weeks later. From that LH, represented my numerous individuals and small messes, a Confederate campaigner battalion was formed. It was BORN OF A DESIRE TO BRING LIKE MINDED HOBBYISTS TOGETHER, and to work together for the betterment of OUR SIDE of the hobby - for all who could meet the event standards and bring a good attitude.

The battalion, still without a name, made its first appearance at Outpost II in November of 2000 on Lee White’s farm. There the men of the battalion endured LOOONG hours of guard duty and sub-freezing temperatures. There were 112 men and not a one left because he was cold, tired, or didn’t want to do what the event was about.

By October 2001 the battalion had a name and traveled to Perryville for its next event. There, as those that participated will remember, we went into camp Friday night, with 89 infantry rank and file and 14 cavalry, just as it started raining. It rained ALL night. But, not only did it rain – and hard, but, our regulations for the event called for NO tents. NONE. And none were brought. Saturday morning, as the rain stopped at first light, and morning reports were brought to me, the battalion numbered ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEEN! Everyone stayed and more had come in during the night. Not the first man left because it was raining.

If men WANT to be a part of something and WANT to get something out of an event or an organization, they will stay. It isn’t the rain of the distance traveled to an event. If it is what the man wants – he will go

Shiloh, June 2002, was the first event the WIG hosted and ran as organizers.

It is commendable that the WIG will have had three commanders in less than ten years. I'm glad of the opportunities they, the Tatermess and the Ground Hornets have allowed me to have.

Frank, you’ve always brought a lot to WIG events and I appreciate what you have contributed. I hope you’ve had a good time at all of them. Leadership of an organization that’s made up of Independents isn’t easy. How many have built such a unit, sustained it, and can attest to the time and energy it requires? But, that doesn’t matter. What does matter is that whom ever is in the leadership position(s) remembers that they are only there for ONE REASON - to take care of the men they represent. You have to provide what the men you represent want. Period.

Except now someone bashes you on the forums and acts like your best buddy a the event.

This is as old as the hills. It happened in the hobby before there was an Internet. Only now the information moves much faster. The end result is the same – either creating a rift between those that don’t want to work together, or creating an opportunity to hear each others thoughts and concerns and laying the foundation of a bridge over than chasm. Usually it ends with the former and not the later. But, in the rare occurrence of the later, everyone benefits when foundations and understandings that are shared.

Then again event conflicts bite. I think the brigade concept would be fun for awhile if it worked but whatever happens let's not forget what we're about and the reasons why we formed those messes.
Frank Aufmuth

There will always be naysayers. Like Kindred I have seen a lot of fractioning and end fighting, and if the truth be known, these are the same arguments, whines, moans, and conflicts that have plagued the hobby for the 22 years I’ve been involved. However, Abel, the hobby will continue. The pendulum swings. There are a few that want something to happen NOW, simply because they want it. The time for that individual may not be in sink with the rest of the hobby. They will never understand why their idea didn’t grow legs and run. Too bad.

There are still leaders – good leaders in this hobby. 2007 will not go down as the best year for the “campaigners.” However, those that want to move forward will, and those that want to continue to hold a grudge – will. We may be at a cross-roads, but with the right person directing the column we can exceed our past achievements and produce more stories and experiences that will be shared around many camp fires in the future – with good pards we may not have even met yet.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

Frank,

Very good reading, passes alot of "Common Sence Testing" the Mess did in getting where we are today. The creation of them had good intentions and seems to have accomplished its mission.

And forming a Brigade is not just for the field, it could be used as a delegation in voting on events, equal representation from across the community....the power of the vote, its used on this web site everyday...put it to forming of the community and the communication there-of. All of which I read into the start of this thread.

However looking around at events like Port Gibson,TAG, Pickets Mill and Advance Guard as someone said earlier can we form the clans?

LET US BUILD SOMETHING WE CAN ALL RALLY AROUND

[Campjacksonboy]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

Dale
I read your post with interest. As much as I see some wisdom in turning towards a brigade mentality. I think a little history is in order.

We may not have been the first but I'll take credit for it anyway. Around 12 years ago, the messes began popping up. I believe it was the Skulker's Mess that started the "Mess" trend. I was a charter member of the Skulkers Mess and was there the day we sat in the Chair Makers shop at Boonesfield hashing between names like "Skulkers," and "Missouri Boys" and deciding that we didn't want any structure what so ever and so the name Skulker's Mess stuck. I remember feeling a little miffed because I had actually tried to write a constitution.

The idea for the mess actually goes back to 1994 when four of us went to this new type of event that became immortalized as Red River 1. This is how I was introduced to the campaign movement. We came back home to our home units which were structured much as you advise. However, our home units were not into campaigning, or authenticity. For example, they did bayonet charges on battlefields where they never happened continually disregarding the history of the places we were going. The company had monthly meetings which I attended almost religiously. I don't know how I'd do it today.
My pards and I left the old "Company" after a fall out over falling in with this new experimental unit called the Macon County Silver Grays. Actually the plan was to fall in with this new group and bring ideas back to the old company. We had tried to "cleanse from within" but things got hostile quickly for many sordid reasons but the bottom line was politics. The Brigade commander supported the interests of the larger half of the brigade and openly scorned the new ideas we had been exposed to

Part of the reason for the mess mentality, at least from the Skulker's Point of veiw, was that we could fall in with whomever, go where ever, not have to fight for what we wanted to get out of the hobby. and best of all be free of all the politics we had so recently left.
For years there was resistance for any attemps to form anything larger than a company with a few messes. I remember seeing 25 men in good kits come together in 1995 and watch them go off on their own because the leadership was lacking and there was no desire to do something to hold it together just for one weekend. As you can see there seemed to be a period of evolution during the 1990's

I think Wilsons Creek 2000 was the first time we had a battalion however short lived it was. We had 90 men make the march from the Ray House to the event site and more were on the way. (To this day I regret that no one took a picture) And then it rained. The rumor spread that the event was cancelled others simply weren't waterproof. Saturday morning only 30 remained. Soon after the WIG pulled it off. I'd like to think it was because it didn't rain but then again I don't really remember when the WIG had their first event but I think it was at Shiloh.

With that having been said a company, battalion and brigade is only as good as the men in it. I've watched events desintigrate in a parking lot. I've heard camp talk morph into "The Family Guy." I've had a years worth of work go up in smoke when guys with good kits run home at the least sign of rain. More recently, I've seen and heard of companies not materializing for many mysterious reasons. I'm leery that if the smaller messes can't do it the larger companies will most certainly fall apart for the same reasons. By the same token if we can't even fill a company how will the brigade thing work. Since this is a hobby commitment is optional.

The Skulkers Mess eventually fell apart for reasons similar to what you say happend to Cleburns but I'll call it a lack of desire, burn out, and people not wanting to follow me.

I read earlier posts about forming a brigade and was reminded of George Orwell's, Animal Farm. I guess things do go full circle.
It is commendable that the WIG will have had three commanders in less than ten years. I'm glad of the opportunities they, the Tatermess and the Ground Hornets have allowed me to have. I guess we've blown the "no politics" rule several times just on the AC alone. Except now someone bashes you on the forums and acts like your best buddy a the event.
I'd hate us to loose some of the things we have now. Namely, the freedom the smaller unit has versus the umteen different events the Mainstream battalion has every year. They don't even have time to do anything unique or different. I don't miss the "Captain or Colonel for life" either.

Then again event conflicts bite. I think the brigade concept would be fun for awhile if it worked but whatever happens let's not forget what we're about and the reasons why we formed those messes.
Frank Aufmuth

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Why does our event histories keep repeating themselves?

Hell Jim,

If I was Obama, I would ask you to be my Vice-President!!! :)

Gotta Go...have to move cows.