Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Wow, I didn't notice the size of those fall-front linen trousers either! I assumed they'd be tiny! They're pretty neat, definitely look to be made at a "slop shop" but that's a discussion for another thread.

Steve, I've looked and looked but cannot see fall-front trousers in any of the images posted so far. I noticed that last week while I was looking through the LoC collection of Navy photos but it didn't really sink in. It looks like fly front trousers with a mix of straight and flared legs, as well as a mix of mule ear and side seam pockets. Very cool stuff.

And thank you Steve for sharing your knowledge about the life and material culture of the United States sailor. This is all very compelling stuff for a guy like me who has studied only the army! I'm getting more and more excited by this event so I'll definitely be doing my research.

Brian, the standard issue for the USN was the fly front trousers. This remained the standard until 1883 when the Navy returned to the fall front by popular demand of the Sailors (interesting story of the first time they asked they guys that had to wear it what they wanted). However, as you can tell by surviving examples, the fall front were woun in studio photos leading me to believe that the SAilors made them/had them made for their liberty gear. For this event, a Sailor most commonly would have had a blue flannel frock, most were straight lay colar, plain flat hat, blue undershirt, and blue fly front trousers of Naval cut.

While there are several photos that show Sailors obviously wearing blue Army/civilian style trousers, the most common would have the Naval cut with the straight legs and sizing gussettt in the rear. Now, when I say straingt legs, this is not the Army/civilian style that tapers toward the ankle. I mean straight from crotch to cuff, the same size all the way down. Flared legs are thos that flare out from the knee. This was also a style at the time that was affected by the "Dandies" of the crew. We again see them in the studio photos on the fall fronts. The fly fronts tend to be straight. I believe they were called "Stove Pipe" in the 1970s.

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve,
The cording on the wheel rims of the 12Pdr Howitzer is interesting. It appears to be a safety solution for a field carriage on board ship. The field carriage appears to be used as a more photogenic prop than the sled. Any knowledge of what that cording was used for? What are your thoughts?
Mike Stein

It is Manila line wrapped around the iron wheels of the field carrage to act like tires. The decks of the ships were either painted metal or wood. Either would be severly torn up by the iron wheels of the carrage grinding on them.

The sleds were actually for use in boats. The guns themselves were not designed to be used aboard the ship. With the skids, they could be rigged for use, but that was not the design. Many ships carried them mounted on the land carrages secured tothe deck ready to be landed. They did gum drill on them routinely just like they did with all other weapons. I think Sailors actually got more small arms target pratice than soldiers. Plus, they praticed with pistols and cutlass.

Steve Hesson

[Marine Mike]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve,
The cording on the wheel rims of the 12Pdr Howitzer is interesting. It appears to be a safety solution for a field carriage on board ship. The field carriage appears to be used as a more photogenic prop than the sled. Any knowledge of what that cording was used for? What are your thoughts?
Mike Stein

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

here are some more....
below is possibly post war?


some uniform photos.
Navy officer kepi?


Navy Sailor's Straw Hat with the tally named U.S.S Mahopac.


Pilot Alfred Marshall, U.S. Navy
Photographed during the Civil War by Hord & Harmon, Post Office Building, Dayton, Ohio.He was Pilot of USS Ouachita in 1864-65. His uniform includes shoulder straps bearing a six-spoke steering wheel insignia.
Collection of Alfred Marshall. Courtesy of Mrs. William A. McElhiney, 1984.



Civil War U.S. Navy Pilot's Cap Insignia
This cap insignia was worn during the Civil War by Navy Pilot Alfred Marshall, who served in the Mississippi Squadron.
Courtesy of Mrs. William A. McElhiney, 1984.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph

Civil War U.S. Navy Pilot's Shoulder Strap
Bearing the Pilot's six-spoke steering wheel.
This strap was worn during the Civil War by Navy Pilot Alfred Marshall, who served in the Mississippi Squadron.
Courtesy of Mrs. William A. McElhiney, 1984.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.


USS Hunchback (1862-1869)
Some of the ship's officers and crewmen pose on deck, while she was serving on the James River, Virginia, in 1864-65.
Photographed by Matthew Brady.
Note swords, folding chairs and details of officer and enlisted uniforms.
The original photograph has Brady negative number B-470.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.

Photo #: NH 59431
USS Hunchback (1862-65)
Gunners loading a 12-pounder Dahlgren smooth-bore howitzer, which is mounted on a field carriage.
Photographed by Matthew Brady in the James River, Virginia, 1864-65.
The original photograph has Brady negative number B-6193.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph

Photo #: NH 59433
USS Hunchback (1862-65)
Loading drill on a Dahlgren 12-pounder rifled howitzer, mounted on an iron field carriage, in the James River, Virginia, 1864-65. Photographed by Matthew Brady.
Note Hunchback's "walking beam" mechanism, combination sponge/ramrod in use and man at right with ammunition container.
The original photograph has Brady negative number B-620.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph

Photo #: NH 55510
USS Miami (1862-1865)
Black crew members sewing and relaxing on the forecastle, starboard side, circa 1864-65.
This image is a detail from the right side of Photo # NH 60873.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.


most of above photos came from

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/p...m/a-marshl.htm

The first photo is between 1883 and 1893. The three stripes of piping around the collar became regulation in 1871 (there was dabbeking with 1-4 stripes from 1866 to 1883). His cap tally has the dangelly tails that were reg from 1883-1893. Note the white lanyard is not for a knife or a bo's'uns call(pipe), but for his locker key. This was part of the uniform for all SAilors from 1883-1913. It was standard issue.

That is a Naval Officers Hat. They did not wear "Kepies". Those were Army things and would not be worn by a Sailor.

The straw hat is post war, after 1866. At that time the prefix "USS" was added to the tally by regulations. It was not seen on tallies prior to that.

The next three photos are miss labled. While the Navy dod in fact have/use Pilots, it was not a rank. What this actually is, is a Third Assistant Engineer. That is not a "Six Spoke Ships Wheel", but a styalized ships Paddle Wheel. It signified Ships Engineers. (Think the modern ships propeller)


Again, note the various knots used in the neckerchiefs.

The gun drill photos are of course posed. The one with the Sailor wearing white trousers and straw hat leads me to believe that he was most likely on watch on the quarterdeck (Uniform for Mustering) and was pressed into service quickly to get the shot with the available sun light.

I know I sould like I think of myself as some kind of expert when I disagree with "Official Navy Photos". But, my beloved Navy has never been real good with it's own history. Until 1990, they were still teaching that the thirteen buttons on the fall front trousers were for the original thirteen colonies. They wrote an article saying that Sailors didn't have shoes until 1871 (they are mentioned in the 1820 regs), and well, look at the pics. It's all about attention to the details and looking at stuff over and over.

Steve Hesson

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Photo #: NH 42266
USS Unadilla (1861-1869)
Crewmembers pose by the ship's Dahlgren XI-inch pivot gun, during the Civil War.
Copied from Francis Trevelyan Miller's "The Photographic History of the Civil War" Volume 6, page 271.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.


Photo #: NH 52028
USS Kearsarge (1862-1894)
Personnel of the Engineer's Department, circa June 1864. The officer at the right is 3rd Assistant Engineer Sidney L. Smith.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph


Some Confederate Navy Photos!!!
Photo #: NH 57256
CSS Alabama (1862-1864)
Captain Raphael Semmes, Alabama's commanding officer, standing by his ship's 110-pounder rifled gun during her visit to Capetown in August 1863. His executive officer, First Lieutenant John M. Kell, is in the background, standing by the ship's wheel.
The original photograph is lightly color-tinted and mounted on a carte de visite bearing, on its reverse, the mark of E. Burmester, of Cape Town. See photo numbers NH 57256-KN for the colored image and NH 57256-A for a reproduction of the carte de visite's reverse.
Collection of Rear Admiral Ammen C. Farenholt, USN(MC), 1931.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.


Photo #: NH 57255
CSS Alabama (1862-1864)
Two of the ship's officers on deck, during her visit to Capetown in August 1863.They are Lieutenant Arthur Sinclair IV, (left) and Lieutenant Richard F. Armstrong. The gun beside them is a 32-pounder of Lt. Sinclair's Division.
Halftoned image, copied from Sinclair's book, "Two Years on the Alabama".
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

here are some more....
below is possibly post war?


some uniform photos.
Navy officer kepi?


Navy Sailor's Straw Hat with the tally named U.S.S Mahopac.


Pilot Alfred Marshall, U.S. Navy
Photographed during the Civil War by Hord & Harmon, Post Office Building, Dayton, Ohio.He was Pilot of USS Ouachita in 1864-65. His uniform includes shoulder straps bearing a six-spoke steering wheel insignia.
Collection of Alfred Marshall. Courtesy of Mrs. William A. McElhiney, 1984.



Civil War U.S. Navy Pilot's Cap Insignia
This cap insignia was worn during the Civil War by Navy Pilot Alfred Marshall, who served in the Mississippi Squadron.
Courtesy of Mrs. William A. McElhiney, 1984.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph

Civil War U.S. Navy Pilot's Shoulder Strap
Bearing the Pilot's six-spoke steering wheel.
This strap was worn during the Civil War by Navy Pilot Alfred Marshall, who served in the Mississippi Squadron.
Courtesy of Mrs. William A. McElhiney, 1984.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.


USS Hunchback (1862-1869)
Some of the ship's officers and crewmen pose on deck, while she was serving on the James River, Virginia, in 1864-65.
Photographed by Matthew Brady.
Note swords, folding chairs and details of officer and enlisted uniforms.
The original photograph has Brady negative number B-470.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.

Photo #: NH 59431
USS Hunchback (1862-65)
Gunners loading a 12-pounder Dahlgren smooth-bore howitzer, which is mounted on a field carriage.
Photographed by Matthew Brady in the James River, Virginia, 1864-65.
The original photograph has Brady negative number B-6193.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph

Photo #: NH 59433
USS Hunchback (1862-65)
Loading drill on a Dahlgren 12-pounder rifled howitzer, mounted on an iron field carriage, in the James River, Virginia, 1864-65. Photographed by Matthew Brady.
Note Hunchback's "walking beam" mechanism, combination sponge/ramrod in use and man at right with ammunition container.
The original photograph has Brady negative number B-620.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph

Photo #: NH 55510
USS Miami (1862-1865)
Black crew members sewing and relaxing on the forecastle, starboard side, circa 1864-65.
This image is a detail from the right side of Photo # NH 60873.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.


most of above photos came from

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/p...m/a-marshl.htm

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

The photo of the Sailor (Close up face shot) where you can read letters from a ca Tally is from the 1880s. The last photo of the crew on deck with white hats is white hat covers. There was a removable cover made for the flat hat of the era. It, like every thing else "Sailor" could be made of linen or cotton. Some were fittet ond others were like a bag with a draw string to pull them closed around the top of the hat. These were very much disliked. The intent was to reflect the sun, making the hat cooler. But like the Havalock, it simply trapped a layer of air and made it hotter. They were dropped with the 1886 regs.

Steve Hesson

Just noticed that the thumbnail is the same SAilor I was saying was 1880s. He is. But look at the photos, notice the neckerchiefs. The various ways they were tied, and the lack of them in some photos. In "Man 'O War Life", the author relates selling his neckerchief while ashore to finance some liberty time.

I think the shot of the guys with the white hat covers may be post war. There is another close shot of these guys that shows them all with perfect "Mendota" cap tallies. These were not regulation and therefore required until the 1866 regs. Also you notice the guys in the fore ground with white bars on their frocks. These were called watch marks and indicated if the Sailor was Port or Starboard Watch. They were also used during the war, but did not become official until, again, the '66 regs.

These are great photos.

Steve Hesson

Steve.

I am going to keep hunting for pics and other info, if you keep up the commentary and explanation. I am learning an awful lot. I hope others are enjoying this thread as much as I am.:D

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Greg, maybe someone can ask the mods for a Civil War Navy forum with authenticy research, uniforms, methods and history subforums?

Some more posed photos for everyones interest, including several African American sailors....Also included is a link to some official records.


I thought this one was neat as the sailor appears to be barefoot.







Steve, does it appear to you that this group of Sailors is wearing white caps?...I know it is hard to tell with these photos.


Here is the link for the official records.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/navalofficialrecords.htm

Just noticed that the thumbnail is the same SAilor I was saying was 1880s. He is. But look at the photos, notice the neckerchiefs. The various ways they were tied, and the lack of them in some photos. In "Man 'O War Life", the author relates selling his neckerchief while ashore to finance some liberty time.

I think the shot of the guys with the white hat covers may be post war. There is another close shot of these guys that shows them all with perfect "Mendota" cap tallies. These were not regulation and therefore required until the 1866 regs. Also you notice the guys in the fore ground with white bars on their frocks. These were called watch marks and indicated if the Sailor was Port or Starboard Watch. They were also used during the war, but did not become official until, again, the '66 regs.

These are great photos.

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Greg, maybe someone can ask the mods for a Civil War Navy forum with authenticy research, uniforms, methods and history subforums?

Some more posed photos for everyones interest, including several African American sailors....Also included is a link to some official records.


I thought this one was neat as the sailor appears to be barefoot.







Steve, does it appear to you that this group of Sailors is wearing white caps?...I know it is hard to tell with these photos.


Here is the link for the official records.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/navalofficialrecords.htm

The photo of the Sailor (Close up face shot) where you can read letters from a ca Tally is from the 1880s. The last photo of the crew on deck with white hats is white hat covers. There was a removable cover made for the flat hat of the era. It, like every thing else "Sailor" could be made of linen or cotton. Some were fittet ond others were like a bag with a draw string to pull them closed around the top of the hat. These were very much disliked. The intent was to reflect the sun, making the hat cooler. But like the Havalock, it simply trapped a layer of air and made it hotter. They were dropped with the 1886 regs.

Steve Hesson

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Greg, maybe someone can ask the mods for a Civil War Navy forum with authenticy research, uniforms, methods and history subforums?

Some more posed photos for everyones interest, including several African American sailors....Also included is a link to some official records.


I thought this one was neat as the sailor appears to be barefoot.







Steve, does it appear to you that this group of Sailors is wearing white caps?...I know it is hard to tell with these photos.


Here is the link for the official records.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/navalofficialrecords.htm

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

It's threads like this (which should be saved somehow) that makes the AC valuable. It's a great break from all the "hobby" talk. You can never get too much information. I am hoping that we can get an event folder and get all this chained down. You might also ask the website owners if we could copy passages for educational purposes. In two years some of the websites could be gone, if we save it all to a document file we will have it.

Thanks guys and hopefully I will have some information for you later.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve , Thanks for the info. Great stuff, keep posting. I found some more pictures for people to look at. They are from this link...
http://www.navyandmarine.org/histori...orms/index.htm

I am sorry they are so small. I am not sure how to improve the quality or where to find larger versions of these, right now. These look like the staged photos that Steve is referring to....

Except for the Blacksmith photo, these are all studio photos with "Jack" in his going ashore best.

The Blacksmiths were photographed aboard Monitor. This is a great photo of working Sailors. Note the undershirts and that they both are wearing belts.

Steve Hesson

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve , Thanks for the info. Great stuff, keep posting. I found some more pictures for people to look at. They are from this link...
http://www.navyandmarine.org/histori...orms/index.htm

I am sorry they are so small. I am not sure how to improve the quality or where to find larger versions of these, right now. These look like the staged photos that Steve is referring to....

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Just found this picture of a young sailor on eBay. Here's the link to more images. Enjoy!

http://cgi.ebay.com/GREAT-1860s-CIVI...#ht_2788wt_907

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

They are pretty large..... I could not tell from the photos if these were the correct trousers I should be looking for or not. I was just curious to know if these were what I should be looking for in them. Did the fall front trousers vary as well, like some of the other Navy uniform items?

Pete, the trousers you show in those photos are just one of many various styles commonly used.

None of the fall front trousers we have looked at have been the same. There are variations to each of them. This leads me to believe that fall front trousers were not the normal daily wear, but reserved for the get dressed up and go ashore occassions. Photos seem to bear this out as when you look at
photos of Sailors aboard ship, you rarely see fall front trousers. They appear in studio photos quite often.

Any way, We have found trousers with falls made like these both with and without pockets (no pockets or small welt pockets being the most common). Some had the shallow falls of these while others had deep 8 inch falls. Some had full extensions behind the fall while others had these narrow ones. It seemed to be all up to the maker.

If I was putting together a set for this particular event, I would go with fly front sailor cut trousers and a straight lay collar frock. Blue undershirt, flat hat and neckerchief.

That's just me though.

Steve Hesson