Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

[Marine Mike]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I hadn't seen Steve's response about Landing Parties (# 116) before but can add some clarity for the Marines. Best researched sources are by David Sullivan for equipment and John D. McAulay for weapons.
Ships were issued muskets for use by sailors v. Marines were issued a musket and accoutrements. The '42 is adopted by the Marines in '53, mostly smooth bore though rifled were included to an extent. I don't remember seeing a date or numbers for the '42 rifled. The '55 is adopted in '59. The Marines get their first allotment and then are asked to return them after 6 weeks by the Ordnance Dept. This will go a couple of cycles before they get to keep them. The Marines will later accept the '61, '63 and '64 as shown by various pictures. Fleet Marines will get priority for the .58 cal. with the barracks and Navy Yard Marines getting the .69 cal. The Marines at First Bull Run will be equipped with '42. Exceptions were Marines issued Spencers at Ft Fisher and access to a small number of same on the Red River campaign with Adm. David D. Porter. Weapons were typically stored aboard ship on a rack with an oil cloth cover providing some protection from the salt air. '55 are pictured on the USS Kearsarge, '42 at Washington Navy Yard and Mare Island, '61 and '63 in guarding Lincoln's assassins.
Marines were issued knapsacks. A Surviving sample appears to be Mexican War vintage, '59 regulations specify one that was probably never issued, speculation is early and mid war federal double pack. The Marines were to use the federal issue haversacks and canteens but these were not directly issued. Issuing was done in the same manner as Steve describes for sailors.
Garrison was common (wedge with 4-6 to a common) or Sibley tents. Bivouac was a blanket. They didn't adopt the shelter half until sometime after the war.
Marines were issued mattresses for barracks and hammocks with horsehair mattresses for shipboard and a blanket. There is a of picture of Marine hammocks hung on barracks balcony.
Foul weather gear was great coat and oil cover for the kepi. It was pooled use of the great coat aboard ship. The white cover was for tropical.
Messes followed Navy practice of 8-12, a box for plates, bowls, cups, flat-ware, pots. A designated mess cook to setup, fetch and carry from the galley, clean-up and put away, receiving a small monetary compensation from his mess mates.
Officers carried pistols that ranged from '42 and '55 single shot to popular revolvers in .36 or .44 cal. Seems the chief duty of the officers' pistol was to shoot deserters. Marine enlisted would be issued a pistol for guard duty when the musket was impractical.

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I am refreshing this thread from 2009. Steve Hesson and others had made many informative posts.

The event wil happen in September, if you need the registration form please PM me, also read through this thread, especially the posts Steve made if you are interested in doing US Navy.

For the US Marines impression, please contact Pete Berezuk.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Landing Parties. There are actually two referances for this. One is an instruction written by ADM Dahlgrin, and the other is the 1866 ordenance Manual. I know the ORD MAN is technically post war, but what it actually is is the 1859 ORDMAN (which is all but impossible to find) with all the pen and ink changes and circulers that went out during the war, all published into one book.

Any way, Landing Parties were extreamly light. They were traveling in boats so they could not carry alot of gear, and the ships they came from did not carry a lot of this gear. Marines are a seperate issue, not my area. The first thing to keep in mind is that the Navy was not actually in the ground combat business. If you take a look at the book "Small Arms of the Civil War, Navy and Marines", you will find ordenance returns for various ships throughout the war. The first thing you will notice is that it is a mixed bag of everything. A ship may have 9 Enfield rifle muskets, 11 Springfield muskets of .69 cal, 3 Austrian rifles and 2 shot guns. Little detail as to which model of weapon. They may or may not have had the correct bayonets to go with them. While the Navy wanted standard long arms, they basically got what ever the Army gave them. First person accounts speak of junk surplus, broken, rusted, bent etc., with the Sailors sitting around building weapons of salvaged parts. The same went for accutrements. They got what was available. The Navy did have Naval pattern equipment, but there was never enough to outfit the fleet. The leather gear was made in shops on the Naval ship yards. They made waist belts, cutlass scabards, bayonet scabards (both sword and socket), cartridge boxes, cap pouches and pistol frogs. Photos show a mix of Naval and Army pattern gear with predominately Army stuff.

Gear was not issued to a Sailor on a permenate basis like Soldioers and Marines. He was issued what he needed for that mission and then turned it in when he returned to the ship. If he went out again, he may or may not get the same gear and weapon. The Navy liked things kept in "sets". For example. A P53 Enfield Rifle Musket would be issued out with a set of gear for that weapon (same number) Generally, everything was on the waist belt, cartridge box, cap pouch (if needed) and bayonet (if available). Just simpler accounting.

If the evolution was going to be one that required rations, the cook was responsible for loading the haversacks. The sacks would be taken to the galley by whoever was incharge of the landing force locker. The Navy used the Army Commissary manual for Marching rations for landing parties. Each haversack would be loaded with however many days of salt "meat", hard tack and coffee were required for the mission. The cook would also fill the canteens. When directed, the Sailors would file past and take one of each. If bedding was taken is was in a blanket roll. Sailors would also draw their tin cups from their mess chests.

Haversacks wer any style, tared/painted, white, buckle or button. Canteens were wnat ever was available. US Sailors routinely were issued with captured CS gear. Again, a mix of anything, but very light overall.

OK, that was the gear for a Rifle Man (how it was listed in the books). Boat crews were armed with waistbelt, cutlass and pistol with box and frog. The Navy had two styles of belt in use at that time. The 1841 which had a simple hook for a buckle much like a musket sling hook, and the 1860 which had a square friction buckle. They also had both the 1841 and 1860 Ames cutlass in use. On the rivers, 1832 Artillery swords and cavelry sabers were also carried, but I am not sure about along the coast. Any pistol was used. This includes the 1842 Ames single shot. Cartridge boxex for the pistols were also common. Since they were ot intended to stay on the beach, they were not generally issued rations nor carry blankets. Each boat was also supposed to carry a long arm (carbine is possible) and a set of sccutrements. But that may not have been possible after equiping a landing party.

Gun crews for landed boat howitzers were supposed to be armed with the Naval Bowie Bayonet. However, these were not always available so most gun crews seem to have carried cutlas and pistol as per ship board gun crews.
As you can see, there is a lot of room for interesting combinations for this impression.

Steve Hesson

[6Pdr]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Greg,
Don't get mad at me if I have a sudden interest in joining the navy!

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I have started a folder under the Ebufu main, since 2013 isn't in range yet. If you want to transfer the discussion and some of the reference material there I would appreciate it. Thanks again for all the positive responses and support, I will do my very best to make this happen.

I have no idea how to transfer stuff.

Steve Hesson

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I have started a folder under the Ebufu main, since 2013 isn't in range yet. If you want to transfer the discussion and some of the reference material there I would appreciate it. Thanks again for all the positive responses and support, I will do my very best to make this happen.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

[I]n looking at the photo of the Kearsarge Engineers, I remember seeing a photo of the guncrew that took off Alabamas stern, posed the next day. While they looked just like the
Black Gang", one of the gun crew had had an arm blown off the day before during the fight. He was posed with the other members of his gun crew. Tough guys.

On another subject, there is a shoe in the Cairo museum that was salvaged from the ship. It is heavily reinforced along its seams and had metal eyelets for the laces. There is still one in place.

I would think these are most likely civilian work shoes. Any thoughts?

Steve Hesson

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I knew Peet's name the second I read it! I found his memoirs during some marathon Berdan's Sharpshooters research. Here is a link to the complete book, scanned and ready to read in it's entirety, for those interested: http://www.archive.org/stream/person...ge/n7/mode/2up

[Sgt Scotti]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Great referance Greg. Life and Death, all in the flip of a coin.

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

In regards to the folder for USN/CSN, I can't speak for the AC but, it would seem that an entirely new forum could be built around such a vast topic. Maybe "Authentic Naval Interpreters" or something to that effect.

I would like to stay on subject with the Sailors, Marines and ships in Charleston for the Summer of 1863 and the Boat Attack event versus the Charleston Battalion, since this is a "land" action that accurately involves Confederate Infantry versus Union Navy/Marines, I would keep the references on that.

I volunteer out at Fort Sumter each week and invariably I will get more questions about the H. L. Hunley or Battery Wagner than I will about Fort Sumter itself, even though it was really the focal point of the Charleston Campaign. Somehow the ironclad attack, bombardments, numerous naval engagements and the Boat Attack get overlooked; perhaps because they aren't the most shining moments for the Union forces involved. Ft. Sumter is more successful than any other fortification in holding off attacks and is never "taken" by force. Very few forts can claim that honor.

In regards to the time line event on October 3 & 4th of 2009, if you are serious about representing a period from 1809-1948, shoot me an email and I will have the Rangers send you a information packet.

Also found a rare book, read it briefly at the South Carolina Historical Society, by Frederick Tomilson Peet only 50 books were ever printed, "Personal Experiences in the Civil War". It had a price in pencil for $350 in May of 1977 wrote on the inside flap. Great photos of the man inside, original CDV's. The book came form the Tower room.

Peet was in the 7th New York, Company H as a private in 1861.

The 1st Berdan Sharpshooters as a 2nd Lieutenant from August, 61 to July 62 in Company H.

And finally as a Marine from June 63 to 1869 as a 2/LT, 1st Lieutenant. He also made mention that Marines fought against Battery Wagner

He is assigned to the USS Wabash on August 4th, 1863 and fights at Wagner.

Page 85-86

"The Marines were to go with the Navy and it was a question which arm of the service should be first in the attack. Our Admiral sent General Beauregard a message to surrender the fort. He replied, 'If you want it, come and take it.''

The Confederates must have guessed our purposes, for they reinforced Sumter at once. Volunteers were called for among our officers, and all the lieutenants volunteered. Our Captain Charles G. Mc Cauley said he would not volunteer, for he knew he would be ordered to command us, and it was so. But one of us had to remain, and Mead and I threw up a cent, to see who should go; he won, and I remained with the balance of my company.

It was fortunate for me that I lost, for Mead's boat was wrecked at the front of the fort by hand-grenades, and Lt. Bradford, our Quartermaster , who attained permission to go, was killed, and all in the boat was captured.''

[508preach]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Seeing how I left Civil War reenacting a few years back to do various colonial maritime impressions (as well as going to college, doing some boatbuilding/sailmaking, and working as a maritime archaeologist), I'd definitely be interested in making a kit for this event. Put me down as an oarsman, as I have done some extensive rowing in all kinds of waters...and Charleston harbor is NOT the easiest of rows....

Cheers,
Adam C.

Adam,

Good to see you on board. It has been a while since we talked last. I will definitely keep you in the loop.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve, On page 167 of EOG they have that Unadilla photo and below that they have a picture of two hats. One is described as a "Sou'wester" foul weather hat and the other hat pictured is described as a "fatigue cap" belonging to George Washington Brown. It looks remarkably similiar to the one pictured in the Unadilla photo which you described as an off duty hat

Right, it is the same cap. The Naval reenacting community has dubed it the "Off Duty Hat" Sorry for any confusion. No, there would be no white uniforms present. White uniforms were reserved for special occassion dress affairs. The first person accounts are full of complaints about how hot their uniforms were, one writing that off Florida on blockade it has been in the 90s for months and they wear blue woolen uniforms. River Sailors write of making uniforms of blue denim and blue white cotton to wear in "Southern Waters" due to the heat. There were no wear dates like there are today. In the book Monitor Chronicels, the author writes of auctioning off the clothing of 13 deserters. Now, he was responsible for recording the tempatrures of the ship daily, and recorded temps of 130 in the galley and 110 in his store room in March in Hampton Rhodes. Any way, no one was interested in the white uniforms, so he rescued them from the rag barrell and sent them home to his wife to cut down into clothing for his two kids. In "Man-O-War Life", in three years aboard a ship of the line for a Pacific Cruise, the author wrotes of wearing his whites three times due to official visitors. The rest of the time it was blues. When his ship returned to port, the crew that was being discharged sold off their blue uniforms and the Bo'S'Un took the whites and tossed them in the rag barrell. I don't see whites too often in deck shots reguardless of season or location. Mostly see them in studio shots as a dress uniform.

Sailors wore what ever shoes they could get. The most common seem to be just plain booties. Pull on boots were also very popular as were low cut oxfords. When they could get them, many Sailors had two pair of shoes, one for work and one for dress.

Steve Hesson

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Pete,
these pics finaly came up for me. In the top photo, notice the variety of stitching on the frock fronts. Also notice the guy on the left with teh three buttons in his bocket. And of course the guy with the goofey hat. For want of anything better to call it, it has been labled an "Off Duty Hat". I find that hard to believe as that would indicate that you could be "Off Duty" aboard the ship. I think these guys got dressed up for the photographer (I have seen several photos of the Bearded Quartermaster on top), and the hat came out for the photo. Any way, this is the only photo I have ever seen of that hot, and the original still exsists.

Steve, On page 167 of EOG they have that Unadilla photo and below that they have a picture of two hats. One is described as a "Sou'wester" foul weather hat and the other hat pictured is described as a "fatigue cap" belonging to George Washington Brown. It looks remarkably similiar to the one pictured in the Unadilla photo which you described as an off duty hat

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Photo #: NH 42266
USS Unadilla (1861-1869)
Crewmembers pose by the ship's Dahlgren XI-inch pivot gun, during the Civil War.
Copied from Francis Trevelyan Miller's "The Photographic History of the Civil War" Volume 6, page 271.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.


Photo #: NH 52028
USS Kearsarge (1862-1894)
Personnel of the Engineer's Department, circa June 1864. The officer at the right is 3rd Assistant Engineer Sidney L. Smith.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph


Some Confederate Navy Photos!!!
Photo #: NH 57256
CSS Alabama (1862-1864)
Captain Raphael Semmes, Alabama's commanding officer, standing by his ship's 110-pounder rifled gun during her visit to Capetown in August 1863. His executive officer, First Lieutenant John M. Kell, is in the background, standing by the ship's wheel.
The original photograph is lightly color-tinted and mounted on a carte de visite bearing, on its reverse, the mark of E. Burmester, of Cape Town. See photo numbers NH 57256-KN for the colored image and NH 57256-A for a reproduction of the carte de visite's reverse.
Collection of Rear Admiral Ammen C. Farenholt, USN(MC), 1931.
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.


Photo #: NH 57255
CSS Alabama (1862-1864)
Two of the ship's officers on deck, during her visit to Capetown in August 1863.They are Lieutenant Arthur Sinclair IV, (left) and Lieutenant Richard F. Armstrong. The gun beside them is a 32-pounder of Lt. Sinclair's Division.
Halftoned image, copied from Sinclair's book, "Two Years on the Alabama".
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph

Pete,
these pics finaly came up for me. In the top photo, notice the variety of stitching on the frock fronts. Also notice the guy on the left with teh three buttons in his bocket. And of course the guy with the goofey hat. For want of anything better to call it, it has been labled an "Off Duty Hat". I find that hard to believe as that would indicate that you could be "Off Duty" aboard the ship. I think these guys got dressed up for the photographer (I have seen several photos of the Bearded Quartermaster on top), and the hat came out for the photo. Any way, this is the only photo I have ever seen of that hot, and the original still exsists.

The second photo of Kearsearge Black Gang (engineers) is a pretty cool photo too. Notice they all have on theire dress hats with the "Kearsarg" tallies. Also the guy to the right wearing his dress blue jacket. How about that guy onthe left with the creases in his trousers. Must have just pulled them out of the bag for the photo. His are the second I have seen on Sailors that were clearly creased (by being folded, not ironed).

Great shots

Steve Hesson

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve. I have been looking at shoe wear and was wondering what the sailors typically wore onboard ship? Did they wear a common workboot or something specifically made for them. I have seen reference to a "marine boot". I am not sure what that is.In some of the pictures I see pull on boots like the photo below. The sailor sitting has pull on boots. There is a better pic of it on 167 of echoes of Glory.




.....Also another question..Since this proposed event will be September 63 in the south, Is it your thought that there might still be some Navy summer white uniforms still represented like listed on page166 of the Union EOG belonging to sailor George washington Brown?