Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Wow, I didn't notice the size of those fall-front linen trousers either! I assumed they'd be tiny! They're pretty neat, definitely look to be made at a "slop shop" but that's a discussion for another thread.

Steve, I've looked and looked but cannot see fall-front trousers in any of the images posted so far. I noticed that last week while I was looking through the LoC collection of Navy photos but it didn't really sink in. It looks like fly front trousers with a mix of straight and flared legs, as well as a mix of mule ear and side seam pockets. Very cool stuff.

And thank you Steve for sharing your knowledge about the life and material culture of the United States sailor. This is all very compelling stuff for a guy like me who has studied only the army! I'm getting more and more excited by this event so I'll definitely be doing my research.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Pete, Also note the size of those trousers! I could have worn those towards the end of my Navy Career. Thanks for the link.

Steve Hesson

They are pretty large..... I could not tell from the photos if these were the correct trousers I should be looking for or not. I was just curious to know if these were what I should be looking for in them. Did the fall front trousers vary as well, like some of the other Navy uniform items?

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve, I found these, I am not sure if these would be the same design as what you are referring to. They saw widespread use circa 1850-1860. It shows great photos of the construction of this orignal garment.

http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_104.htm

Pete, Also note the size of those trousers! I could have worn those towards the end of my Navy Career. Thanks for the link.

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve, I found these, I am not sure if these would be the same design as what you are referring to. They saw widespread use circa 1850-1860. It shows great photos of the construction of this orignal garment.

http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_104.htm

Those are great, but I was asking for any fall front trousers in use by the Sailors in the photos which have been posted in this thread.

Steve Hesson

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Has any one found any fall front trousers inthe photos that have been posted? I haven't.

Steve Hesson

Steve, I found these, I am not sure if these would be the same design as what you are referring to. They saw widespread use circa 1850-1860. It shows great photos of the construction of this orignal garment.

http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_104.htm

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Has any one found any fall front trousers inthe photos that have been posted? I haven't.

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I have my copy of "Under the Blue Pennant" handy Steve,
The author is John W. Grattan Published by John Wiley and Sons, Inc.

Thanks Ken, mine is boxed up in the spare room some place

Steve Hesson

[kb35]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I have my copy of "Under the Blue Pennant" handy Steve,
The author is John W. Grattan Published by John Wiley and Sons, Inc.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Some other things that appear in the photos of the Sailors uniforms is that they appear to not be Sailors uniforms. Every now and then as you look close you see the odd pair of narrow legged trousers. I have seen a photo of a Sailor wearing dark blue Army or Civilian trousers. You also see what appear to be blue flannel shirts, complete with button plackets. This is intirely possible. Sailors got what was available. And, while these items do appear, worn with Sailors flat hat and neckerchief, they were not at al the norm.

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

We talk alot about the clothing of the Sailors of the ACW, but to properly do this impression you really need to know what the Sailor was like. What was his life style. I refer to this as the "Social and Materisl Culture". It is improtant and is the part that is missed by the majority of those doing Naval impressions. With out this, it's just infantry reenactors in Sailor suits. Here is a list of bllke I would recomend to anyone thinking about putting this impression together. You will notice that they really are not campaign or battle histories. Sadly, I find those sorts of reads boreing and most often can not get through them (I know, "BLASPHIMER!!").

The first is my personal favorite, and if you only read one Sailor book, make it this one:
"Life in Mr. Lincolns Navy" by Dennis J. Ringle (CDR USN RET)., published by Naval Institute Press. This is a comprehensive book about the life of a Sailor from the minute he decides to enlist until he receives his old age veterans pension. It covers every aspect of life in the Navy including breaking down the lifestyle differances between Firemen and Seamen. It seperates the River Fleet from the Blockading Fleet from the Sea gooing Fleet. I refer to it routinely. When Cdr Ringle wrote this book, he was teaching Naval History at the US Naval Academy, and had full assecc to all archives of the Navy. Plus, he was a Sailor so he was able to relate things to modern life. This is THE BOOK.

Next would be "A Year on a Monitor and the Destruction of Fort Sumter" by Alva Hunt, published by University of South Carolina Press. Alva Hunt was a 16 year old "Boy First Class" serving aboard the Monitor "Nahant" in 1863 during operations along the SC coast. It is a first person account, basically a diary, giving a crewmans view point of life in the iron lcad fleet. again, lots of details about Sailor life in the coastal forces by an enlisted Sailor.

Next would be "Under the Blue Pennant". Sorry, I do not have the book available at this time, so can't give you the author or publisher. It, again is a first person account by an Ensign assigned to the Admirals staff of the South Atlantic Blockading Squadron" Gives and officers view of life aboard ship and eye witness accounts of some of the major fleet actions (FT. Wagoner, FT. Fischer).

Then, "The Monitor Chronicles", edited by William Marvel. It is the collected letters of a Fireman named George Geer, who served aboard USS Monitor from the day she was launched to the day she sank. He regularly wrote home to his wife, and she saved all his letters. The really interesting thing about this view of life is that Geer hated the Navy and the Ship. He is constantly scheaming to get off the ship, get out of the Navy, and work some financial deal. He ends up finishing out the war and being promoted to a Third Assistand Engineer (Equivelant to a modern Ensign).

"Man-Of-War Life" by Charles Nordhoff and again published by Naval Institute Press. This book is not about the Civil War per sea, having been written in 1855 about the authors cruise around the world from 1843 to 1846. However, it is a highly detailed description of Sailor life that is for the most part identicle to the life of the Civil War Sailor. I have had access to dozens of diaries and letters from Civil War Sailors, and Nordhoffs account basically takes all the different situationd described in various other sources and puts them in one book.

"Union Jacks" by Michale J. Bennett. Not really my favorite. The author was not in the Navy or the military, so misses the context of much of what he describes. As an example, he takes an incident from Alva Hunts account and makes it seem as if the crew was on the verg of mutiney. Hunts description was matter of fact, and having spent 26 years as a Navy Enlisted Sailor, I even saw myself in the situation and thought of it as houmorus. It gives an picture of life in the 19th century with it's non "PC" attitudes as seen through the eyes of a 21st century man who has not been in a similure situation. But there are some good details there.

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

First off, I want to appoligize for not being able to post pictures. I am basically computer illiterit (nor do I spell well).

Any way, the photos that have been posted here show some very good aspects of the average Sailors appearance. Specifically the lack of anything resembeling uniformity. I have often said if you lined up 15 CW Sailors, and really looked at them, you would see that the only thing uniform about them was that they were all Sailors.

In the Mendota photo, note how almost every one has a really nice hat. They have a uniform round shape and a topping ornement. Not every one, but most. Also note the variations in frock collar size and that many of the men have stars worked into the corners. This was a common decoration. It also attests to the fact that Sailors clothing varried even in the same crew.

Now, I have made a big deal about every one being plain with no decoration. I have gone on and on about spending your days covered in grease, coal dust and paint. To be sure, not every Sailors life was like that. That would have been the lofe of the Landsman or Coal Heaver (Entry level Deck or Engineering Sailors). There were in fact Sailors who had "clean" jobs. The former Sailors on this forum can also attest that after a while, aboard ship you learn to spot wet paint and where the grease is. Things haven't changed, modern ships have the same "clothing hazzards", and real squids learn to avoid them.

OK. Also, note on the Monitor deck pohoto the variations of work clothing. The guy all the way to the left has a frock that is very light in color. To me this would appear to be a faded denim frock. There was mention of untucked frocks. I equate this to photos of modern Sailors in dungarees where their shirts have come untucked. If you look at the series of photos taken on the Monitor that day, you see that the crew was engaged in repair work including having a portable forge set up on deck. There is a photo some where that shows this forge in use. You also notice tha mechanics hats being worn. Belts were a commonly worn item with working clothing. The other thing you see commonly which was noted was that Sailors worked wearing just undershirts. These always seem to have been the blue undershirts. I know Sailors had white/natural undershirts, but have not come across a photo of a Sailor wearing a non blue under shirt without a frock.

One last ting in th emonitor photos is the guy in the front squating with the white denim coveralls. These were worn by the engineers in the fire and engin rooms. As far as I know there are no surviving examples of these coveralls. They were another of those utilitarian items that was simply used up.

Steve Hesson

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Chris ,

It will consist of any generic impression that could have been seen at Fort Moultrie from 1809 to 1948. From War of 1812 to the World War Two. Should kick off on Saturday Morning and continue on Sunday. I have no information on camping. I will have further later this week.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

On October 3 & 4th, 2009, there will be a "time line" LH event for Fort Moultrie/Sumter. I will be there as a Sergeant for Company E, 1st U. S. Artillery. They would also accept Naval and Marine impressions that would abide by Steve Hesson''s guidance. This will also be the Bicentennial of Fort Moultrie, from 1809-2009.

More info ?

CjR

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

On October 3 & 4th, 2009, there will be a "time line" LH event for Fort Moultrie/Sumter. I will be there as a Sergeant for Company E, 1st U. S. Artillery. They would also accept Naval and Marine impressions that would abide by Steve Hesson''s guidance. This will also be the Bicentennial of Fort Moultrie, from 1809-2009.

On September 19th, the NPS will hold a "Siege Artillery School" at Fort Moultrie, I have advertised the "event in the Artillery Section of the AC. It's a one day, no camping, no small arms, classroom and practical. The uniform is CS, Charleston, Mid-1863, but we could still discuss the Boat Attack.

With the interest indicated on this thread, it would seem a fitting Sesquicentennial event for the c/p/h hobby.
You have chances to meet up in September, October and December at Fort McAllister.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve,

So the frocks, undershirts, trousers, and cap in EoG aren't representative of what a sailor would have worn for "work" even if the embroidery, shell buttons, and ribbons are removed? Could those garments be studied and used as an example to make a reproduction set, say if the embellishments weren't added? I guess what I'm curious about is if the materials and patterns are correct for what is needed at the event (sans decoration of course).

I understand the PEC thing too, but I think it can get out of hand. With the great research you've already posted here and still have to share, I don't expect everyone portraying a sailor to show up with wild embroidered blues. I did notice some embroidery on one of the EoG frocks though, across the chest and done with black thread; is something more subdued like this acceptable? Not trying to find excuses for myself or anyone else, I am just curious.

Thanks for all the info you've posted...I'm looking forward to more!

Brian, To answere your initial question as to the validity of using the EOG uniforms as a base, yes, they would work. Button down collars were common, but not the most common. The frock with the dikie is not a good choice for an every day frock. As you look at images, you see the flyfront trousers are much more common than the fall front.

I know for folks who have spent a lot of time reproducing Army uniforms, this is a difficult thing to get your head around. With the Army stuff, it is exactly reproducing a specific item down to pattern, fabric and stitches per inch. Navy stuff just doesn't work like that. There was no specific "pattern" for Navy enlistd uniforms. The Navy had shops at the Naval ship yards that produced these items, but they did not have the strict specifications that the Army had. The reason for this is quite simple. The Army was a metropolitan organization, never meant toleave the continental US. Whereas, the Navy was intended to operate away from the US for years at a time. There were no US support bases outside of the US. There fore, each ship had to survive on theire own. This meant that the Sailor would have to get clothing hererever he could. Ships could carry readymade clothing. There is a table showing how much clothing various ships were supposed to carry based on crew size. However, this ready made clothing took up a lot of space aboard ship. Most Captains opted to cary bolts of raw fabric that the crew could draw and make their own clothes with. Quite a few Captains chose to not even bother with this. Either way, the Navy knew that it could not enforce any sort of detail specs on what a Sailor was going to wear. So, as long as it was blue and of the common Sailor cut, that was good. As Ross says, the first person accounts state that Sailors made their clothes from any blue fabric they could get their hands on. It was stitched using common period techniques with what ever thread they could get that matched the fabric.

Now, enbelishing a uniform that you are going to wear to work in. Anything you do to that garment you are going to have to do on your own time. You are standing 4 hours on watch and 4 hours off watch. During your off watch time, during the day (working hours) you have tasks that you are assigned to do. Basically, the only time you have to yourself during the course of a day is the four hours between watches after "knock off ships work" which is approximately 1700, and "Silence" (taps today) at approx 2130. During this time, you also have to eat, followed by sweeping down the berth/mess deck and if possible, catch a bit of sleep. Now, on most ships of the day, wednesday after noons were sometimes set aside for the maintenance of clothing. Sometimes Sundays. These few hours were about the only time a Sailor really had sufficent time to work on sewing. Given that schedual and life style, why put a lot of effort in to decorating clothing that you wear scrubbing decks, scraping off old paint and rust, painting, varnishing and tarring the ship, policshing or greasing metal or other assorted moving parts and moving coat around the bunkers of coaling ship? Except for coaling ship, I have done all of these things. It does in fact beat up your gear.

The thing to remember here is that for a Sailor of the day, aboard ship there was "On Watch" and "Off Watch". There was no "Off Duty". You could not, in most cases, when you got off watch, just amuse yourself until your next watch. There was work to be done, and the off watch crew did it. When there was no work to be done, in the evenings when it was too dark to work anymore, you ate or slept. I guess the bottom line here is that is just doesn't make sense to decorate you work clothes as they are going to get beat up. Put that time into a really good uniform you save for going ashore in.

Steve Hesson