Austrian Lorenz Repop

[58 lorenz]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Well, my Loyalist Arms Lorenz came today. I took a few quick photos of it next to my original Lorenz,so that others could see how it compares to at least one original.

Doug Price

[rake]

Re: Loyalist Arms cone In Barrel 18435/40 musket

Never say never - have a gun show find that has that type of build up.

Unfortunately can't post attachments, so all can have a look.

[sharpshooter]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Doug,

Since you have them side by side, what do you think?

How long from ordering it, did it take to get the Lorenz?

[RudyN]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I just received an e-mail from Loyalist Arms answering the question of delivery time. They indicated that it would take about three weeks from the date they received the payment to get the Lorenz to me. I also am in California.

[JWNathan]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Looks pretty good and within my price range too! I do still like te Palmetto '42 smoothbore aswell. So how are LA's other bayonets, better than the India ones? I ask cause I need one for my P-53 Enfield(Euroarms)and if they are of decent manufacture then one might hope that when the Lorenz bayonet comes out that it might be of similar manufacture.

[58 lorenz]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

There are a few things I am not happy with,mainly the profile of the stock cheekpiece,but other than that, I am generally pleased with my Lorenz. Too bad the stock could not be that distinctive "speckled" wood that seems so common with Austrian arms of the period,but for now,it will do. The repo is about 1 inch longer overall than the original,but the distance between the front sight and the first barrel band is such that fitting an original bayonet is seemingly not possible,unless one was to move the front sight. The repo bayonets that I have for my Euroarms M61 and Enfield slide right on to the repo Lorenz barrel, but will take some grinding to the sight channel to fit. I have no idea how long Loyalist will take for a Lorenz bayonet, so in the meantime, I will modify a repo Springfield bayonet to fit.
In answer to a question, my Lorenz took quite a while to be delivered, because I put a deposit down on it when it was first announced late last year.


Doug Price

[RudyN]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Glad you mentioned that a repro 61 Springfield bayonet will fit with modification as I have one sitting in the garage doing nothing. I was able to replace the repro with an original bayonet for my Euroarms 61 Springfield. Looks like I will be sending for my Lorenz this coming week.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms cone In Barrel 18435/40 musket

Wick:
The US 1842 reproduction is slipping in quality, if recent examples are representative. For the "best reproduction in the hobby" it has its share of problems. The metal used for the internal parts is too soft, on some 1842s the top line of the trigger wears away where it meets the sear so that the trigger will slip off and stay jammed in the rear of the trigger guard. I noticed recently the Armi Sport engineers addressed this not by using harder metal for the trigger, but filed the top line into a point to delay the inevitable. If you have a repro 1842 of recent vintage, a real good "accuracy modification" is to replace the trigger with an original part (though some filing may be required). Dixie Gun Works has the original US 1835-42 triggers for $15 or so.

The ramrod on the repro 1842 smoothbore is two piece, too soft and an odd shape at the tip. The Dixie Gun Works replacement ramrod is much better. Around $25 or so. It needs to be cut to size and threaded at the end (or not).The band springs are slightly mis-located on the forestock. Not much you can do about that. The first two barrel bands will interchange with an original, but the double strap top band does not for some reason. Many chose to have a brass sight blade brazed to the top band. About $20 to add that.

On one recent Armi Sport US 1842 the hammer did not reach the cone (nipple). You read right...it did not make contact w/ the cone by about a quarter inch. This was not unique to the Armi Sport US 1842 model alone. There was an Armi-Sport CS Richmond exactly the same way. Todd Watts corrected these for BRI, not sure if there are others with this defect, but lightning struck at least twice with the same defect from the same manufacturer. There are probably others out there. Of course, the Armi-Sport 1842 lock will take some original parts but not others, most noteably the mainspring will not fit without some re-profiling. An original lock will not fit without some woodworking to the repro Armi Sport stock. All in all, the Armi Sport is a good reproduction that used to better before they switched to softer metal which is a move they made to extend the life of the tools and dies which are wearing. With a little patience and about $75 (incl shipping) you can make a fine musket out of the Armi Sport US 1842, but to my eye they are not as well made as they were in the 1990s.

The Armi Sport US 1842 needs less work than their P-53 Enfield to be passable, and with the most recent price increase the 1842 de-farbed with sling and bayonet would cost a bit less than their P-53. It is certainly a good alternative.

[Johan Steele]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

An original Lorenz bayonet will not fit the repop Loyalist Arms; my beef is that if I do get a proprer rifled barrel I'll have to add a second bayonet... and an original at that. More $ that might be better used somewhere else. Best answer seems to be lining the barel to .54.

Then again last weekend I went sans bayonet and did just fine...

[trippcor]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Doug,
The pictures that were posted do not seem to show that big a difference between the placement of the sight and the first band. If the front site were to be moved forward a bit do you think an original bayonet would fit? I did notice the cheek piece was not as well defined as the original. Do you think that the repro stock could be sanded down like we have to do with the repro enfields to be a better match?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

The problems with the Loyalist Arms repro stock won't be fixed by sanding. It is the dimension (length) of the wrist which throws off the placement of the cheek rest. This feature was a nice bit of human engineering on the original M-1854 Lorenz. The wrist portion of a gunstock can be extended easily enough by cutting back the comb, but not shortened again. Unfortunately, wood is easier removed than put back. The Loyalist Arms M-1854 Lorenz will require some "compromises" on the part of the end user, but not necessarily more than say that old warhorse the Euroarms P-53 Enfield, largely unchanged since the 1980s. The Lorenz details will just be harder to address, at least in the early production runs while LA bugs get ironed out.

I came to believe the reason for the coolness towards any repro Lorenz by Armi Sport or Euroarms was the fear of cannabalizing their existing Enfield sales, meaning potential Enfield buyers might be swayed by the Lorenz as an alternate rifle-musket choice, vs a smoothbore which is often an additional purchase for early war events. Just a possible theory. The price of the Loyalist Arms M-1854 is attractive, at least initially. The type corrections needed will push the price upwards for the purchaser, unless you can tolerate the details as they are. One potential upside is if there turns out to be a good sized market for the M-1854 Lorenz, the other repro gunmakers may respond with an "improved" product. Let's not hold our breath, though.

Another possibility is the bayonet lug was mis-placed to promote easier fitting of existing repro bayonets vs waiting for a new Lorenz bayonet to be produced. Loyalist Arms is famously slow about getting around to tooling up for these sorts of details. I would have been surprised if an original Lorenz bayonet would fit due to the larger .62 barrel.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Just curious...
The full set of parts for a Lorenz is $670 from The Rifle Shoppe.
( http://www.therifleshoppe.com/(698).htm )

Anyone want to ball-park what the cost of assembly and finishing might be?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Wick:
The Rifle Shoppe parts are going to be quite rough, and ten years ago the Greg Eddington "Bridesburg Armory" Lorenz assembled from them was $1100+. I understand a grand total of one (1) was produced from that venture. It was cheaper to get an original in shootable condition, and most enthusiasts that had to have a Lorenz (like me) went that route.

This is why the initial enthusiasm for the Loyalist Arms version is what it is...the alternatives are not particularly encouraging.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Assemblying mismatched rough parts is very time-consuming. I would suspect a gunsmith would have to pad his time to assemble all the parts at about 8 hours of labor just to fit them. Then if a barrel or stock has to be made you are looking at parts plus that labor. You'd easily hit the $1000 mark and probably climb a tad over it per gun.

Not dealing with the Lorenz, but this past weekend I began de-farbbing a new Armi Sport Enfield from Taylors. It is unlike any other Armi I have come across. The stock's comb is non-existent, not even the little rounded nub they usually have. The barrel markings are in different places as well. "Armi Sport" is now on the bottom of the barrel, hidden from view. On the surface this sounds like good news, but then where Armi Sport used to be in front of the sight, they have the Euroarms barrel stuff that says ".58 Caliber For Black Powder Only." They have new proof marks in the same place under the serial number, and the serial number has a slightly different look. The lock plate is Euroarms, meaning it has the period-correct mainspring stop ledge instead of the Armi Sport screw. Overall it appears like a good quality gun still, but they have obviously had a manufacturer change over there.

On a happier note, I got a break finally on remaking the Liege. The small parts can be reproduced here in brass locally and these parts can be fitted by me to work and then sent to India to be copied in steel. This has been an issue because we don't want to send a high-quality original set of parts to India to be never seen again. And, they tend to cast them "as is" so any rust pits are in the casting as well. But a newly fitted and polished brass part would theoretically be "perfect." My stock carving device is being built at this time and the barrels are ready to be produced. Once this project gets moving, the Lorenz (RIGHT) is next.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

ten years ago the Greg Eddington "Bridesburg Armory" Lorenz assembled from them was $1100+. I understand a grand total of one (1) was produced from that venture. It was cheaper to get an original in shootable condition, and most enthusiasts that had to have a Lorenz (like me) went that route.

By way of analogy...
A few years (10) ago, one could purchase a very nice WWI era Colt/Rem UMC/Springfield Model 1911 pistol with holster, belt, mag pouch, and extra mags for about $1000. Today, the same rig might cost $2000 to $3000 depending on the maker and vintage of pistola included. Colt now offers a reproduction of a 1918 Model 1911 pistol for $900 - $1200, depeding on the dealer... they couldn't have marketed the same item at the same price 5-10 years ago!

Invariably, the price of the collectable always catches up with whatever price is offered. This is why, when a collector pays above top-dollar for a good example, he says, "I didn't pay too much, I'm just ahead of my time". :cry_smile

The same can be said for repro $600 Enfields, $800 1816 Conversions, and (yes) $1000 Lorenzs (ack! How do you pluralize "Lorenz"!?)