Austrian Lorenz Repop

[DougCooper]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

The photo is titled "Group of Federal soldiers in Confederate fort on heights of Centreville with Quaker guns" and is believed to have been taken in March 1862. It can be found on the LOC website - LC-B811- 334A.

Here's another one these same fellows, with Lorenz. This is from an image, same series, titled "Centreville, Va. Fort on the heights, with Quaker guns" - LC-B811- 334.

Doug - I do believe you're right and that they are members of the 95th Penn. "Gosline's Zouaves." I'm pretty sure I can make out "95" and "F" on this fellows cap.

Eric

What a fabulous photo. The 95th did get dark blue trousers and gaiters with the jackets and these guys appear to still have them. They replaced the Lorenz rifles with 1861 Springfields in April 1862. In March they were camped in this vicinity before departing for the Peninsula with the AoP. This soldier also has the dark gray shirt with buttons, but none of them appear to have the distinctive hepi issued 6 months prior - perhaps they wore out or this company did not get them.

But best of all - note the rope tie arrangement on the blanket roll inside the ground cloth. Many of us have done this over the years. Now we have some documentation. Also, is that some kind of round mess tin or a canteen?

[Dignann]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

The photo is titled "Group of Federal soldiers in Confederate fort on heights of Centreville with Quaker guns" and is believed to have been taken in March 1862. It can be found on the LOC website - LC-B811- 334A.

Here's another one these same fellows, with Lorenz. This is from an image, same series, titled "Centreville, Va. Fort on the heights, with Quaker guns" - LC-B811- 334.

Doug - I do believe you're right and that they are members of the 95th Penn. "Gosline's Zouaves." I'm pretty sure I can make out "95" and "F" on this fellows cap.

Eric

[LeatherHead]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

Excavated sheet iron throats with hook and sheet iron tips with ball ends from Austrian-made leather-covered Lorenz socket bayonets scabbards do show up from time to time on eBay. Presumeably they were recovered from American Civil War sites but only the digger knows for sure and from where. More and more European finds are making their way to the United States and the provenances of those items usually get lost or misrepresented.

The blades and scabbards generally do not interchange. I bought a Lodgewood Austrian scabbard, probably from the warehouse cache, and walked it around a gun show or two to find a blade that would go in it (length and width) also with a socket diameter that would fit on the Lorenz rifle they were joining.

The Austrian infantry of the 1850s carried the scabbards on white buff shoulder belts, as is illustrated in period photos in the monograph on the Austrian army put out in the series produced in England (Osprey?). I have not yet seen a surviving Austrian scabbard attributed to CW use with a waistbelt frog still with it, but am very eager to hear of one. A collector/shooter friend conjectured that the Confederates may not have used one, simply sliding the scabbard behind the waistbelt with the hook keeping it in place. Original US-made Lorenz scabbards, in at least 2 styles, are encountered with some regularity out there today.

Dean Nelson
1st MD Infantry, CSA, N-SSA

[Tim Prince]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

Other cool things to note in the picture:


#1- The guns are what collectors term Type II Lorenz's and have both the cheek rest and the long range rear site.

#2-Big (and I mean "farby" big) cups, on the outside of their haversacks, attached by the closure strap!

#3-The haversacks (in general) are bulging full!

#4-At least one soldier has a tompion in his Lorenz- it looks to be a standard US style turned wood plug.

#5-The smooth side canteens and lack of leather covers on the knapsack strap hardware (along with the previously mentioned two rivet scabbards) all encourage dating the image to sometime in 1862.

#6-This may be a result of overall image quality, but I cannot see either a brass hook or adjustment holes in the slings- ruling out the standard US issue. I do see leather loops, but that does not rule any particular type of sling out. They do not appear to be either type of English sling, since neither a buckle nor ties are visible.

[Tim Prince]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

In general the US issued one of two special types of 2-rivet scabbard for use with the quadrangle Lorenz bayonet. The oval throat one was designed for use with all of the various 4-sided Austrian socket bayonets (M1799/28, M1842 & M1854) as well as the M1809 & M1839 Prussian (Potsdam) bayonets, and a variety of other imported bayonets that were too long (or too wide) for use in the standard issue scabbards. The diamond throat scabbard was specifically for the Austrian bayonets.

Until recently I was of the opinion that the Austrian made scabbards did not come over here in any great numbers, however I have recently come to the conclusion that they did come over in at least some quantity. Austrian scabbards are listed on blockade-runner manifests, showing that the Confederacy was buying them. Also, in Mr. Kindred's nice research on Mass troop issues, he came across a listing for a regiment that was issued "Austrian Rifles" and "Enfield scabbards". Obviously the Austrian bayonet would not fit in an Enfield scabbard, so this is likely a reference to the use of Austrian scabbards, as they resemble the Enfield scabbard with a mounting hook designed to mate with a frog (as previously noted in this thread).

This would be a great picture for Paul Johnson to use in his upcoming book on bayonet scabbards. I'm sure most of you are familiar with Paul's ground breaking work on US cartridge boxes, and the bayonet scabbard book (possibly books....) will again give students of material culture much to ponder.

[Secesh]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

These men appear to be wearing chasseur style uniforms. Best regards.

[rogue]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

Ah Bermuda Hundred. I know the place, hunted there in the early 60's with a fellow from Henrico County named Sam McClaren.
I have several of the US made scabbards, which had to be made to fit the Lorenz bayonet as their shape was not that of either the Springfield nor Enfield bayonet.
I too had not seen a Lorenz scabbard part come out of the soil of the US of A. I was hoping that someone else had.
No great historic puzzle this, just curious. For all the Lorenz rifled muskets issued by the north alone, a large number of scabbards must have been fabricated by someone to fit the foreign imports. Not all would have been happy to wear the long bayonets in the short scabbards as shown in the photo at the head of this thread.
Thank you.
Steve Sullivan

[Jimmayo]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

I have never found a Austrian Lorenze bayonet but saw one dug in CS lines at Burmuda Hundred. Have never seen any scabbard parts. I have also heard of the Lorenze scabbards being found in Europe and then shipped over here in I believe in the 1960s or early 70s.

Don't forget the Feds made scabbards for the Lorenze bayonets. Two types of two rivet scabbards as far as I have seen. The throat determines the type. One has an oval opening and the other a more square corner type looking sort of like a third corps badge.

[Joe Walker]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

I have owned a few Lorenz muskets and several bayonets and scabbards of leather-covered wood over the years. It has been apparent to me that the bayonets were fitted to the gun and bayonets made to accomodate the scabbard. I have noted the lower ends of the bayonet blades being "trimed" to make this happen. As you know, the "throat" of a wooden Lorenz is made of metal with a "+" cut in it for the bayonet to go through. Although I am not speaking as an authority, I also believe the bayonets were matched with the guns since they are not always interchangeble. Years ago, Chris Schreiber of Long Island made for me a US style leather bayonet scabbard from an original. Obviously, this made fitting the bayonet in the scabbard easy without modifying it.

Joe Walker

[rogue]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

Humor, har-har!
Going back to the initial posting, Mr. Mayo, in your extensive battlefield archaeology, have you ever found any remains of the very distinctive Lorenz scabbard? Aside from the hook, the mouth of the scabbard has the "X" configuration or opening to hold the blade. It would be hard to pass a Lorenz scabbard part off as anything else.
It is my understanding (unresearched) that within the last decade a warehouse in eastern Europe was found with Lorenz baynots/scabbards aplenty, and many have made it across the Atlantic, and not on a blockade runner either. Were these scabbards seen stateside before that hoard was discovered? Aside from diggers recovery, are these scabbards seen in stateside museum collections?
I bought one from Lodgewood, they had several, and the warehouse story was told to me then.
Steve Sullivan

[Slouch]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

If the Lorenz's shown had been issued with full Austrian accoutrements the bayonet scabbards would not have been popular, nor practical. Instead of a leather loop to slip on the waist belt the Austrian scabbard came with a hook like device similat to what is found on a NCO/musician sword scabbard...

Steve Sullivan

Why do you think the Confederates allowed that ship to be captured? The captain reported hearing cheers from the troops in Willmington:D

[DougCooper]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

Ya know what, I think this might be the 95th Pennsylvania, Gosline's Zoauves. The jackets are correct but they are standard forage caps - not unusual for these guys. they wore issue trowsers and were issed gaiters. Looks a 95 and a D on the one cap.

[rogue]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

If the Lorenz's shown had been issued with full Austrian accoutrements the bayonet scabbards would not have been popular, nor practical. Instead of a leather loop to slip on the waist belt the Austrian scabbard came with a hook like device similat to what is found on a NCO/musician sword scabbard.
Note also to the left, two men from the "invisible man" there is a full outfitted soldier who seems to be holding a 1816 or similar weapon, much longer than a Lorenz.
Steve Sullivan

[Slouch]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

funny you should post that. Im in the very beginning stages of researching the issue of scabbards for non-Springfield bayonets (model 55). There were thoudands of Enfields in the Federal Army, and the number of Enfield scabbards issued to the army doesnt seem to compare to the number of muskets (again, just beginning to do research..this statement is based soley on the number of surviving, identified to Federal use, Enfield scabbards and on photographs). This research is difficult, as records seldom descibe the type of scabbard being issued.

Ive often wondered about reproduction scabbards being made by molding it to the actual bayonet it is being ordered for, except for understanding that repro and originals are diferent.

At this stage in my research, I have a thesis that soldiers had to make do with Springfield-type scabbards regardless of the bayonet they had. This is just a working thesis. Perhaps the correct bayonet was issued with the musket, but replacement scabbards were most likely Springfield types.

As for Confederate issue, thousands of Enfield accouterments were run through the blockade. I have read that Enfield musket purchase prices included the bayonet and scabbard, yet cargo manifests often have different numbers of scabbards and muskets listed. It could be that IF the muskets actually came with bayonets and scabbards, they were crated together, and the number of scabbards listed were in addition to those that came with the muskets.

Then one has to consider CS produced scabbards, and were they sized in a manner to accept both Springfield type and Enfield type bayonets?

In the OR's, I have found a reference to scabbards "from Vienna" being part of the inventory of a captured blockade runner.

If anyone can help, please chime in. Im also trying to figure out what the Fed's did with captured blcokade runner inventory. I know the ship and cargo went to court for adjudication, but havent found any records concerning the fate of the inventories. Seems to me it would have made sense (which means they probably didnt do this) to keep accouterments and muskets for issue to the army.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Austrian bayonet scabbards

Here is most of the original picture. Some observations and questions:

Were there Quaker guns at Centerville? If not, could this have been taken near Williamsburg except for all the barracks in the background.

All of the Lorenz's have slings. Could this indicate the arms were shipped with slings and bayonets but no other leather accouterments? The scabbards are the two rivet type which are early to mid war.

These troops seem to have dark blue shell jackets and trousers. Were they early war volunteers in a state supplied uniform or some semi-zouve unit?

What in the world is on the top of this cap? I can see the regiment number and the top part looks like a Jeff Davis hat pin. What is in the middle?

If you do a search on the LOC using the word "soldier" this picture shows up on the 2nd or third page. I believe it is titled something like Federal soldiers at Centerville.